Author Topic: Brawn GP (Read 8113 times)

Cypher · **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2009, 16:33:01 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 16:33:01 PM

All the fastest teams? Red bull are not running one and they are stonking quick. Not all the time is made from that one part. Its easy to lose focus.

Toyota have been disqualified for an overflexible rear wing.

Serious · **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:57:27 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 03:57:27 AM

Quote from: Cypher

All the fastest teams? Red bull are not running one and they are stonking quick. Not all the time is made from that one part. Its easy to lose focus.

Toyota have been disqualified for an overflexible rear wing.

Stupidity, they should be allowed to modify it until it fits the criteria.

Cypher · **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2009, 20:49:35 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 20:49:35 PM

After the qualifying session lol?

neXus · **Reply #18 on:** March 30, 2009, 21:32:25 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 21:32:25 PM

Quote from: Cypher

All the fastest teams? Red bull are not running one and they are stonking quick. Not all the time is made from that one part. Its easy to lose focus.

Toyota have been disqualified for an overflexible rear wing.

If teams say it makes the car faster then, they know what they are talking about. It is not one thing but zero tenths in F1 is a massive amount of time. There is no doubt that it makes them faster, it is if it is legal or not.
Many times one part has shown to make differences.

Brawn GP are fast for a few reasons though yes but the rear defuser helps to shave 0.3-0.5 seconds a lap.

- Their front wing differs from most of the other cars, no one has questioned this, others will just need to adopt their approach.
- With No Kers that weight is not at the back and so they used that balast at the front. Overstear is better to manage then understear.
- With no Kers and a small engine they do not need as big air vents and thus allowing for it to be slimmer.
- The overall car is small. What makes this and the other cars and one of the big reasons Red Bull are quite quick is that they went for as small as you can. Ferrari have also gone small but they have a bad front and rear wing.

Toyata are interesting, They can not do rear wings hey, Not the first or second time they have been pulled up for dodgy rear wings. They have had a few failures too.

Serious · **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2009, 05:27:43 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 05:27:43 AM

Quote from: Cypher

After the qualifying session lol?

There should have been checks well before the race to make sure there was no problem.

Cypher · **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2009, 19:44:32 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 19:44:32 PM

Quote from: neXus

Brawn GP are fast for a few reasons though yes but the rear defuser helps to shave 0.3-0.5 seconds a lap.

- Their front wing differs from most of the other cars, no one has questioned this, others will just need to adopt their approach.
- With No Kers that weight is not at the back and so they used that balast at the front. Overstear is better to manage then understear.
- With no Kers and a small engine they do not need as big air vents and thus allowing for it to be slimmer.
- The overall car is small. What makes this and the other cars and one of the big reasons Red Bull are quite quick is that they went for as small as you can. Ferrari have also gone small but they ha.ve a bad front and rear wing.

Very nice Newey but completeley missing the point.

The point was not overthinking everything. The diffuser alone cannot explain Brawns advantage. How is the car superior over the Toyota and Williams, both of which have a very similar diffuser.

1 part does not make all the time, it is 1 part in a colaborative system. 1 Entity. There is a lot going on even before the rear diffuser has a matter in the say of air flow.

Quote from: BBC

Besides, one very experienced F1 aerodynamicist told me the following: "In aerodynamic terms, seven tenths of a second implies about 70kg of extra downforce for a given drag.

"The size of the diffuser as defined in the regulations means it creates only about 10% of the cars total downforce - about 120kg.

"If their diffuser is worth seven tenths of a second it implies that they are getting 60% more downforce from their diffuser than anyone else. That is ludicrous.

"Id say if you could get a diffuser to be giving you an extra 20kg over everyone else - about 0.2 seconds-worth - you would be doing incredibly well.

Which makes your random figure of 0.3-0.5 plain silly.

Which is why what happens at the court of appeal, is going to have bugger all effect on the overall speed of this car.

Clearly the competitor teams DONT have a clue, otherwise they wouldnt be in this mess.

Rivkid · **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2009, 23:07:38 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 23:07:38 PM

Agree with Cypher - Brawns advantage isnt because of diffuser or the Merc engine. Its mainly due ot the fact that they spent the whole of last season designing a great car. Ross Brawn said like last August that theyd be a top 3 team this season before anyone could have guessed how McLaren, Ferrari, Renault etc.. would turn out. Theres a reason he took a huge risk buying a team he couldnt afford when rich investors wouldnt take the risk - its because he knew something noone else did. Whatever happens with the rulings and development this season Brawn are going to be at the top because they have the best car. End of story.

neXus · **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2009, 23:50:50 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 23:50:50 PM

Quote from: Cypher

Quote from: neXus
Brawn GP are fast for a few reasons though yes but the rear defuser helps to shave 0.3-0.5 seconds a lap.

- Their front wing differs from most of the other cars, no one has questioned this, others will just need to adopt their approach.
- With No Kers that weight is not at the back and so they used that balast at the front. Overstear is better to manage then understear.
- With no Kers and a small engine they do not need as big air vents and thus allowing for it to be slimmer.
- The overall car is small. What makes this and the other cars and one of the big reasons Red Bull are quite quick is that they went for as small as you can. Ferrari have also gone small but they ha.ve a bad front and rear wing.

Very nice Newey but completeley missing the point.

The point was not overthinking everything. The diffuser alone cannot explain Brawns advantage. How is the car superior over the Toyota and Williams, both of which have a very similar diffuser.

1 part does not make all the time, it is 1 part in a colaborative system. 1 Entity. There is a lot going on even before the rear diffuser has a matter in the say of air flow.

Quote from: BBC
Besides, one very experienced F1 aerodynamicist told me the following: "In aerodynamic terms, seven tenths of a second implies about 70kg of extra downforce for a given drag.

"The size of the diffuser as defined in the regulations means it creates only about 10% of the cars total downforce - about 120kg.

"If their diffuser is worth seven tenths of a second it implies that they are getting 60% more downforce from their diffuser than anyone else. That is ludicrous.

"Id say if you could get a diffuser to be giving you an extra 20kg over everyone else - about 0.2 seconds-worth - you would be doing incredibly well.

Which makes your random figure of 0.3-0.5 plain silly.

Which is why what happens at the court of appeal, is going to have bugger all effect on the overall speed of this car.

Clearly the competitor teams DONT have a clue, otherwise they wouldnt be in this mess.

I am at work but the time was pulled direct from quotes by teams during Barcelona testing of the advantage it could get and I will put them up for you. Your looking for a fight and I will not give it to you but Again as said in my post...

- it is true one peace does not add to be everything and I listed some of the elements of why the brawn gp is faster (http://brawngp.blogspot.com/ from here before you moan) and said that too!
- BUT countless times big performance boosts have come from one innervation by one team and to deny that is plain daft as their are so many cases of it, a number of which banned as they were to much of an advantage and either illegal or classed bad for the sport and then made illegal updating the rules.

Mclarens extra braking, There was someone with the bottom board design that was different and made illegal, the whole of shoot fins across the cars which have appeared over the last few seasons came from one team to start with, Ferrari and the tire covers found to add a great amount of time per lap and adopted by some more teams last season and now most this season.... Can go on and on.

I get moaned at if I not read a post in full, so others should do.

Rivkid · **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2009, 12:54:21 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 12:54:21 PM

Button wins agan - sh*t race and only half points but he drove superbly after a bad star so thatll do. Cars very quixk (again) and looks good in the rain.

Good result for Hamilton too - glad to see him get some points after a horrible week.

Autosport are reporting that Ross Brawn offered to help clarify the diffuser rules as far back as last March and that offer was refused. In addition to the Malaysia stewards clearing it like it Australia it looks like the FIA are going to take some serious convincing to deem it illegal now (wouldnt put it past them though!).

neXus · **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2009, 20:29:40 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 20:29:40 PM

It is the FIA, God knows what they will do, they are so inconsistent and not in sync with anyone else in F1 you just never know.

- It is not Mclaren so that will make a difference, Not being daft here, FIA really do have something agaisnt them, they are formed mostly by people who work or are around the Ferrari/Fiat Company.
- The above being said, Ferrari are one of the teams who have lodged a complaint so...
- All of what Rivkid is correct, race stewars, trying to make sure they are legal well before etc, IF the FIA change their mind now or take note now they are going to look bad.
- Not all the teams have made an official compliant about it, so that has to be important?

If it is ok it will be interesting to see how fast the other teams adapt their cars and then how they will effect their performance. Cypher and my differing thoughts would be highlighted again. If other cars adopt them and suddenly become very quick it will again be another case of one part making a big difference. If nothing of nothing happens to most of the teams with them then Cypher will get an apology.

Cypher · **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2009, 23:19:45 PM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #25 on: April 05, 2009, 23:19:45 PM

An apology for what? Im owed nothing.

Its called a discussion. I dont care who is right or wrong, I only ask there be some reasoning behind an opinion so I can at least take it seriously.

I strongly believe all the teams could throw whatever diffuser within interpretation of the rules and would still be outclassed. Honda (Effectively, gave up on 2008 and worked on the 2009 car over a year ago) The car deals with issues like tyre wear in a way that laughs at other teams.

McLaren are struggling after their efforts in 2008 to secure the title, and with such radical rule changes, one of the big teams was allways going to get it wrong big style. McLaren seem to have this dip in form every couple of years, I think it was 2002 last where Kimi and DC were hopeless. They effectively had to bring out a mark 2/B car.

Theres a good reason why I dont go into topics such as programming or photography etc. I would be talking nonsense.

neXus · **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2009, 00:09:00 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 00:09:00 AM

You are right and that was not in question in regard to the overall build of the new Brawn Car, never was argued (though you did not read my posts properly and thought it was) You are right about they have been working on it a lot longer then others. Mclaren hardly bothered at all and that is costing them, But I still stand by one peace on a car can make a massive difference to its pace and has always been there in F1 when an innervation has come about.

Rivkid · **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2009, 09:01:38 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 09:01:38 AM

Quote from: Cypher

I strongly believe all the teams could throw whatever diffuser within interpretation of the rules and would still be outclassed. Honda (Effectively, gave up on 2008 and worked on the 2009 car over a year ago) The car deals with issues like tyre wear in a way that laughs at other teams.

Yup agree with that entirely. Add to that that Button is driving superbly (definitely got the edge on Rubens who is far from slow!) and you can see an incredible package.

neXus · **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2009, 09:34:06 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 09:34:06 AM

Quote from: Rivkid

Quote from: Cypher

I strongly believe all the teams could throw whatever diffuser within interpretation of the rules and would still be outclassed. Honda (Effectively, gave up on 2008 and worked on the 2009 car over a year ago) The car deals with issues like tyre wear in a way that laughs at other teams.

Yup agree with that entirely. Add to that that Button is driving superbly (definitely got the edge on Rubens who is far from slow!) and you can see an incredible package.

But always has driven the same way. When you got a car that can not even overtake the slowest cars on a straight you cant do nothing and then frustration sits in which makes you worse.

Rivkid · **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2009, 09:53:01 AM

Re:Brawn GP

Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 09:53:01 AM

Quote from: neXus

But always has driven the same way. When you got a car that can not even overtake the slowest cars on a straight you cant do nothing and then frustration sits in which makes you worse.

Id like to say that Jenson always got the best out of the car no matter how bad it was but thats not true - hed be the first to admit that. There have been years where he lost the edge and has underperformed, and as a result has at times performed less than favourably against poor quality team mates (Sato, Fisicella etc..) You can blame frustration to a point but at the end of the day keeping a clear mind is an important part of being an F1 driver. Ross Brawn only this week discussed how he had considered hiring him at Ferrari but decided against it due to sometimes putting in poor performances, although he admitted that was probably a mistake given how well hes doing in a good car.

Jenson is a great driver, without question one of the best on the grid. We shouldnt underestimate though how much his hard work in a poor car has aided him, and prepared him to grab this opportunity with both hands. Many drivers would have choked but (so far) he hasnt. If Jenson was to win a world title it would mean more to me than when Lewis did (and that meant a lot) because as fans weve been through so many bad times with Button, and being honest we never really thought hed get this chance.

Long may the Button revolution continue because Im fully loving it!

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Author Topic: Brawn GP (Read 8113 times)