I always put his poor performances as your standard off days as well as days he was up to "here" with it as I have seen so many bad team choices mess him about.

Quote from: neXus

I always put his poor performances as your standard off days as well as days he was up to "here" with it as I have seen so many bad team choices mess him about.

You cant put it down to off days because these guys out performed him over an entire season not one off races. As for being pissed off with the car he had no reason to be with his Williams or his Renault besides which the team mates beating him had the same car.

Im not bad mouthing Jenson here you understand - Im a huge fan. Im just playing devils advocate because whilst hes shown brilliance at times hes also shown weakness too - just like every other great driver or champion.

Your taking one line of text at a time over a whole discussion which is not the way to do things. You just contradicted yourself a bit in your first paragraph because you yourself put his performance issues heavily down to the bad car and team set up for two years not "These guys out performed him" suggesting it was the drivers. But you are correct about drivers having their weaknesses and they all have it. What I said was how I feel but what it leads to is the same thing your commenting on. I think these lead to the cause of him having bad driving at times. All drivers have an off day, add that off day to a bad team day and bad car and you get a terrible performance. Add that to all the team issues and the car which got worse after a season not better and then add the frustration anyone must have and you get some inconstancy as wel as bad performance. I mean your right! I am right as well.

It leads though to the changes in F1. Some I agree with and I understand the cost cutting but the FIA just seem to have lost the plot in many areas. Always on about safety but in many ways this season making the cars worse! not better. They are also changing the cars and rules far to much to reflect drivers and driving skill. Of course this is a big part of it but F1 is a sport that is for 100s of people not just one. The whole team makes a champion in F1 and how they build and maintain the car is a massive thing in F1 and they should not remove this aspect they should make some of the changes to make it more equal but they are going way over the top.
When I watched F1 and saw cars come into the pits and a pit crew just looked at the car as it got fuel my heart sank for example.

Your taking one line of text at a time over a whole discussion which is not the way to do things. You just contradicted yourself a bit in your first paragraph because you yourself put his performance issues heavily down to the bad car and team set up for two years not "These guys out performed him" suggesting it was the drivers. But you are correct about drivers having their weaknesses and they all have it. What I said was how I feel but what it leads to is the same thing your commenting on. I think these lead to the cause of him having bad driving at times. All drivers have an off day, add that off day to a bad team day and bad car and you get a terrible performance. Add that to all the team issues and the car which got worse after a season not better and then add the frustration anyone must have and you get some inconstancy as wel as bad performance. I mean your right! I am right as well.

It leads though to the changes in F1. Some I agree with and I understand the cost cutting but the FIA just seem to have lost the plot in many areas. Always on about safety but in many ways this season making the cars worse! not better. They are also changing the cars and rules far to much to reflect drivers and driving skill. Of course this is a big part of it but F1 is a sport that is for 100s of people not just one. The whole team makes a champion in F1 and how they build and maintain the car is a massive thing in F1 and they should not remove this aspect they should make some of the changes to make it more equal but they are going way over the top.
When I watched F1 and saw cars come into the pits and a pit crew just looked at the car as it got fuel my heart sank for example.

No, I havent contradicted myself at any point - youve made your own mistake about reading one line at a time. He hasnt been competitive in the field because hes had a tinpot car - thats a fact. But he has lost out to his team mates (at times) in the same tin pot car - thats down to poor performance on his part. Theres no contradiction at all they are seperate areas of discussion.

As for the rule changes - I was against most of them at first. However Im beginning to understand. KERS is a waste of time for racing but it spotlights F1 as helping to develop green technologies which is necessary for the future of the sport. Without this it would lose massive amounts of sponsorship and would come under much heavier fire for the fuel thats wasted at races. FACT - we would not have Bransons involvement without this sort of thing hes said that openly, and that would probably have cost us Brawn GP. Cost cutting is obviously essential although I think £30m is way too low and probably wont happen. Slicks back is a great idea - they should never have vanished. The car designs have (one way or another) made racing really exciting again and as long as they dont f**k it up by banning the diffuser 3 I think its been mission accomplished.

Oh dont start that rubbish.  They dont have a clue, so none of us here have a clue how much it is.  0.5-0.7 secs a lap is the advatnage have at the moment, potentialy a full second when you consider the extra fuel they were also carrying in qualifying.  Putting it down to the diffuser is nothing more than PA nonsense, they would look weak in court otherwise.

The teams have been plucking numbers out of a hat like rabbits the last few weeks, one minute its 0.2, the next 0.7.  It it plainly not possible to have that much of an advantage from a diffuser.  Its simply naieve and narrow minded to think so, never mind technically not possible when the entire car generates around 120KG of down force with the diffuser contributing in theory 10%.  The percentage advantage 0.5s would imply is simply ludicrous, even more evidence they dont have a chuffing clue!

Its like watching kids argue on a playground over conkers.............then they get banned.

Oh dont start that rubbish.  They dont have a clue, so none of us here have a clue how much it is.  0.5-0.7 secs a lap is the advatnage have at the moment, potentialy a full second when you consider the extra fuel they were also carrying in qualifying.  Putting it down to the diffuser is nothing more than PA nonsense, they would look weak in court otherwise.

The teams have been plucking numbers out of a hat like rabbits the last few weeks, one minute its 0.2, the next 0.7.  It it plainly not possible to have that much of an advantage from a diffuser.  Its simply naieve and narrow minded to think so, never mind technically not possible when the entire car generates around 120KG of down force with the diffuser contributing in theory 10%.  The percentage advantage 0.5s would imply is simply ludicrous, even more evidence they dont have a chuffing clue!

Its like watching kids argue on a playground over conkers.............then they get banned.

Again there are other factors but then they are the people building, and racing these cars and do it for their Lively hood and with all the guys there etc I think They know what they are talking about more then you Cypher. You got good understanding of things and said a lot of right things but this last post is basic tosh in my view.
This as with may other parts to cars is offering a massive performance boost and if they say this on average gives you x amount on track then it does. No one really outside you has said otherwise, it has always been if it is legal or not, now it is all cars will have that and the boost it gave these cars will be gone and if the other teams get onto an even level straight the way then it will just prove that further.

Quote from: neXus

Again there are other factors but then they are the people building, and racing these cars and do it for their Lively hood and with all the guys there etc I think They know what they are talking about more then you Cypher. You got good understanding of things and said a lot of right things but this last post is basic tosh in my view.
This as with may other parts to cars is offering a massive performance boost and if they say this on average gives you x amount on track then it does. No one really outside you has said otherwise, it has always been if it is legal or not, now it is all cars will have that and the boost it gave these cars will be gone and if the other teams get onto an even level straight the way then it will just prove that further.

The pros have been bandying the 0.5 sec a lap figure around to aid their appeal. Now the appeal is done they are starting to question its real advantage and teams inc. Renault and Ferrari are again talking about challenging. Even the mighty Alonso who last week said the diffuser would decide the title has now said its unclear how much difference it really makes compared to the rest of the aero package. It definitely gives better performance no question, but 0.5 sec a lap is pure speculation. Dont get confused by Brawns performance because thats just a great car - but BMW and Red Bull werent left for dead by Toyota and Williams so its far from the miracle cure the press are making it out to be. Bottom line is no one has run the same car with different diffusers and timed the difference so no one knows the real advantage it gives - professional or not.  

That does not sound complete true since Renault are throwing in a full new defuser in the next GP already and Mclaren have a modified one also (not full change) and others will follow suite. Ferrari will get there, they just have issues with other elements of the car at the moment such as kers which they have scraped for the next race till they sort the issues out with it and the split wing.

From my understanding BMW have an updated aero package on the way, a B spec car as it were.  They may decide to run kers.

Out of all the cars to benefit from an improved diffuse my eye would be on red bull,  Vettel is and has been quick.  One example of a team being quick through a completely different design ethic even before you get to this diffuser nonsense.

Well the Button train rolls on. Great showing in Bahrain. Just need a decent upgrade package in Spain to push on for the title. So excited!!  

Hope they got the resources to push and develop the car further to as you say push for the title.