Author Topic: New PC  (Read 10022 times)

New PC
Reply #30 on: April 17, 2006, 09:56:40 AM
Quote from: Shaun
Cornet where is the hype???  RAID0 has been around for years and a lot of people who advocated it years ago still do today.
In a properly configured system RAID0 will not slow it down and saying other wise is harking back to the days of sub 500MHz systems  :lol:

Yes your right PATA/SATA  drives do fail but the only people who complain when they loose all there data are the ones dumb enough to have no redundancy.
Whether that be an automatic methods or backing up important stuff manually.



The very reason i wont go RAID0 is becuase its a constant round of back ups.


New PC
Reply #31 on: April 17, 2006, 11:25:44 AM
go raid 0+1 then :p

do you use raid 1 at the moment brummy ?

if not... the are you constantly backing up now ?
by the same logic as above, you should be :p

  • Offline Rhino

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New PC
Reply #32 on: April 17, 2006, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: knighty
go raid 0+1 then :p

do you use raid 1 at the moment brummy ?

if not... the are you constantly backing up now ?
by the same logic as above, you should be :p

 :stupid:


  • Offline Mark

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Re:New PC
Reply #33 on: April 17, 2006, 13:00:11 PM
Raid level 0 shouldnt even be called Raid - it should be AID - as there is no redundancy

Re:New PC
Reply #34 on: April 17, 2006, 15:00:25 PM
I have a 200GB HD drive which I will use for doing manual backups of important data.  So Im fine in that respect.

With regards to the other things you talked about Cornet, you are completely wrong.

Ive used RAID 0 before and know for a fact that it was faster in use, games NOTICABLY loaded quicker than they did with a single drive.

Just look forward to getting it all now so I can set it up :)

  • Offline neXus

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Re:New PC
Reply #35 on: April 17, 2006, 15:23:21 PM
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil


HALOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


I have that memory, kicks ass

CPU though you should go for the HYper modular, good performing psu, not the best yeah, but the modular system certanly makes things easy

Re:New PC
Reply #36 on: April 17, 2006, 15:26:11 PM
The PSU I ordered is modular :D  Much better PSU than the Hiper Power too I would think.  Ã‚£90 vs £58.

Quad 12v rails too :D

Memory, I actually went for 2 x 1GB G.Skill PC4000 in the end.

(No subject)
Reply #37 on: April 17, 2006, 16:22:03 PM
Quote from: knighty
^^^

1.) balls, they prove how fast your system preforms in comparison to another system running the same benchmark, and depending on what there testing they prove a whole lot (like a full system test)



But benchmarks prove nothing in the real world.

Quote

2.) balls. how will it make your box slower ? running raid 0 *can* increase the load on the CPU very slightly, but thats normally down to the fact that it is/can process a lot more to/from the disk than a non raid 0 system

Its slower than Raid 1, the increased load on the PCI bus, or the cpu cycles if its software raid I would have thought just off of the top of my head. Much like shoving loads of USB attachments into a PC. If your a fan of benchmarks as you appear to be, every little helps right?

Quote

3.) balls. why ? faster access to needed OS files, faster loading times, faster swap file, i cant see any reason it would be slower ? and having run a few systems normally then in riad0, in my experience it sped things up, a lot


Its only faster on writes, its actually slower on reads.

Quote

4.) balls. how did you work that out ? no its not.


because he can read.

Quote from: FAQ on raid (RFC style)

Raid Level 0 - Striping - Data is segmented and split onto multiple spindles.
Short Reads - Easily handles multiple simultaneous reads
Long Reads - Single operation can be split and processed in
parallel
Short Writes - Easily handles multiple simultaneous reads
Long Writes - Single operation can be split and processed in parallel
Redundancy - None
Cost - Good (no extra hardware)

Raid Level 1 - Mirroring - Duplicate data is kept on multiple splindles
Short Reads - Faster (shorter latency) since resolution can be from any of multiple disks
Long Reads - Faster since resolution can be from any of multiple disks
Short Writes - Slower since need to write to multiple disks
Long Writes - Slower since need to write to multiple disks
Redundancy - Excellent
Cost - Expensive - at least double the spindle cost


Quote

5,) balls. they might die, something bad might happen, but your in just the same boat as if you have 1 drive, 2 x 200 gig drives are better than 1 400 gig drive for speed, and drives dieing is pretty rare these days, especially without warning, as always back up your important data.


Your 2 times more likely to suffer a catastrophic failure, than you are with no raid, with raid 1 you are half as likely as a normal non-raid install to suffer any dataloss.

  • Offline cornet

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Reply #38 on: April 17, 2006, 17:06:24 PM

Quote from: knighty

1.) ...

Already been said - benchmarking proves nothing in real world.

Quote

2.) balls. how will it make your box slower ? running raid 0 *can* increase the load on the CPU very slightly, but thats normally down to the fact that it is/can process a lot more to/from the disk than a non raid 0 system

This is naff all to do with the CPU. Its the speed at which the disks can read/write data.
If you actually knew anything about RAID then you would know that the most important thing to get right with a RAID0 setup is the stripe size.
Getting the stripe size right so it actually increases performance depends on you knowing the size of the files that you are going to be working with.

Read this for a full explanation.

Quote

3.) balls. why ? faster access to needed OS files, faster loading times, faster swap file, i cant see any reason it would be slower ? and having run a few systems normally then in riad0, in my experience it sped things up, a lot

This relates to 2.) - OS installs contain lots of differently sized files. Putting your SWAP on raid0 would give some speed increase thou.

Quote

4.) balls. how did you work that out ? no its not.

More heads, less latency (see M3ta7H3ads post)

Quote

5,) balls. they might die, something bad might happen, but your in just the same boat as if you have 1 drive, 2 x 200 gig drives are better than 1 400 gig drive for speed, and drives dieing is pretty rare these days, especially without warning, as always back up your important data.

Its basic maths... again see M3ta7h3ads post.

As for the use "RAID 0+1" rubbish:
1.) Use RAID 10 not RAID 0+1 (see this

2.) Again getting stripe size is crucial

  • Offline neXus

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Re:New PC
Reply #39 on: April 17, 2006, 17:13:26 PM
Waterblock from paulus, his are really nice
keyboard - get a decent one this time m8, not a old naf one, get a nice logictech, same with mouse, or the razors.

Looked at psu, yeah, nice when you spending that amount ^^

(No subject)
Reply #40 on: April 17, 2006, 18:35:07 PM
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad
Quote from: knighty
^^^

1.) balls, they prove how fast your system preforms in comparison to another system running the same benchmark, and depending on what there testing they prove a whole lot (like a full system test)



But benchmarks prove nothing in the real world.

Quote

2.) balls. how will it make your box slower ? running raid 0 *can* increase the load on the CPU very slightly, but thats normally down to the fact that it is/can process a lot more to/from the disk than a non raid 0 system

Its slower than Raid 1, the increased load on the PCI bus, or the cpu cycles if its software raid I would have thought just off of the top of my head. Much like shoving loads of USB attachments into a PC. If your a fan of benchmarks as you appear to be, every little helps right?

Quote

3.) balls. why ? faster access to needed OS files, faster loading times, faster swap file, i cant see any reason it would be slower ? and having run a few systems normally then in riad0, in my experience it sped things up, a lot


Its only faster on writes, its actually slower on reads.

Quote

4.) balls. how did you work that out ? no its not.


because he can read.

Quote from: FAQ on raid (RFC style)

Raid Level 0 - Striping - Data is segmented and split onto multiple spindles.
Short Reads - Easily handles multiple simultaneous reads
Long Reads - Single operation can be split and processed in
parallel
Short Writes - Easily handles multiple simultaneous reads
Long Writes - Single operation can be split and processed in parallel
Redundancy - None
Cost - Good (no extra hardware)

Raid Level 1 - Mirroring - Duplicate data is kept on multiple splindles
Short Reads - Faster (shorter latency) since resolution can be from any of multiple disks
Long Reads - Faster since resolution can be from any of multiple disks
Short Writes - Slower since need to write to multiple disks
Long Writes - Slower since need to write to multiple disks
Redundancy - Excellent
Cost - Expensive - at least double the spindle cost


Quote

5,) balls. they might die, something bad might happen, but your in just the same boat as if you have 1 drive, 2 x 200 gig drives are better than 1 400 gig drive for speed, and drives dieing is pretty rare these days, especially without warning, as always back up your important data.


Your 2 times more likely to suffer a catastrophic failure, than you are with no raid, with raid 1 you are half as likely as a normal non-raid install to suffer any dataloss.


as for increased load on the PCI bus or increased CPU cycles....

do you really think the increased load on the PCI bus is going to slow down system preformance ? I dont understand where you got that from, even if your raid aray means your maxing out the PCI bus throughput, thats going to be directly preportunbal to the increased speed of the system because it can read/write data so much faster.

for the extra CPU cycles, the only difference Ive ever seen is that the CPU is working harder because its reading/writing so much more.
if I run some heavy compression software, copy a file from disk and put it back on the same disk my CPU is only just peaking at 20% usage (non raid here)
so the real bottle neck there in the system are the HD read/writes, not the CPU, and im pretty sure this will be the same 99% of the time.   if I copy a file to a virtual ram drive, and do the same but using my ram instead of HD the cpus both run at 100% and its hellish fast  (again confirming the HD bottle neck)


as for your little box of quote about raid, go and find some examples of raid cards that will read from 1 disk and not the other (to increas speed as it sugests) Ive never seen any, and Ive and a good look/read through difference raid cards, the whole point of raid1 is that everything that happens to one disk happens to the other too.

and I just plain dont beleave "RAID1 Long Reads - Faster since resolution can be from any of multiple disks"

balls to that, did you write it yourself ?  raid 1 is faster becuase it can read from 1/2 as much from 2 disks in half the time it takes to read the same full thing from 2 disks !   (a major point of raid 1 being you read from both disks and check the data is identical)



Quote from: cornet

Quote from: knighty

1.) ...

Already been said - benchmarking proves nothing in real world.

Quote

2.) balls. how will it make your box slower ? running raid 0 *can* increase the load on the CPU very slightly, but thats normally down to the fact that it is/can process a lot more to/from the disk than a non raid 0 system

This is naff all to do with the CPU. Its the speed at which the disks can read/write data.
If you actually knew anything about RAID then you would know that the most important thing to get right with a RAID0 setup is the stripe size.
Getting the stripe size right so it actually increases performance depends on you knowing the size of the files that you are going to be working with.

Read this for a full explanation.

Quote

3.) balls. why ? faster access to needed OS files, faster loading times, faster swap file, i cant see any reason it would be slower ? and having run a few systems normally then in riad0, in my experience it sped things up, a lot

This relates to 2.) - OS installs contain lots of differently sized files. Putting your SWAP on raid0 would give some speed increase thou.

Quote

4.) balls. how did you work that out ? no its not.

More heads, less latency (see M3ta7H3ads post)

Quote

5,) balls. they might die, something bad might happen, but your in just the same boat as if you have 1 drive, 2 x 200 gig drives are better than 1 400 gig drive for speed, and drives dieing is pretty rare these days, especially without warning, as always back up your important data.

Its basic maths... again see M3ta7h3ads post.

As for the use "RAID 0+1" rubbish:
1.) Use RAID 10 not RAID 0+1 (see this

2.) Again getting stripe size is crucial



ok, ok, its important to get a good stripe size for what your using, but you havnt told my why running raid 0 is going to slow down my box yet ?
a raid 0 array with a badly set stripe size is still going to out preform a single disk.

as for the "the raid card has tell a disk to write a ***k file, then check its done that, then send the next one bla bla bla,. thats just plain wrong, the raid card sends data to/from the disk, the disk handels the rest and uses its cach to help, so thats running at 300mb/s (for SATA2) or even old IDE133, thats 133meg a sec, way faster than the disk can actually read/write from the platters.

so what if your OS install containes lots of different sized files ?  weve already established that even with a badl set stripe size that raid0 is still faster then a single disk (and id argue its way faster)

yeah, so youve got twice the chance of a catastrophic failure, if i buy 2 lottery tickets ive got twice the chance of winning, its still naff all chance tho ;)
and as said above, were talking about people running raid1 for the preformance increase here, this isnt people who have 2 identical drives, decide they might as well run raid and cant decide which rout to go it is.
so really were compairing a raid1 box to a non raid box, so backups are just as important either way arnt they ?

  • Offline cornet

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Reply #41 on: April 17, 2006, 21:30:23 PM
Quote

as for your little box of quote about raid, go and find some examples of raid cards that will read from 1 disk and not the other (to increas speed as it sugests) Ive never seen any, and Ive and a good look/read through difference raid cards, the whole point of raid1 is that everything that happens to one disk happens to the other too.

and I just plain dont beleave "RAID1 Long Reads - Faster since resolution can be from any of multiple disks"


Well Linux Software RAID has had this for years:
From here
MD implements read balancing. That is, the RAID-1 code will alternate between each of the (two or more) disks in the mirror, making alternate reads to each. In a low-I/O situation, this wont change performance at all: you will have to wait for one disk to complete the read. But, with two disks in a high-I/O environment, this could as much as double the read performance, since reads can be issued to each of the disks in parallel. For N disks in the mirror, this could improve performance N-fold.

Quote

balls to that, did you write it yourself ?  raid 1 is faster becuase it can read from 1/2 as much from 2 disks in half the time it takes to read the same full thing from 2 disks !   (a major point of raid 1 being you read from both disks and check the data is identical)

No, reads are assumed to be correct as disk have internal integraty checking. Only very old RAID1 implementataions do what you discribed above.

Quote

ok, ok, its important to get a good stripe size for what your using, but you havnt told my why running raid 0 is going to slow down my box yet ?
a raid 0 array with a badly set stripe size is still going to out preform a single disk.

as for the "the raid card has tell a disk to write a ***k file, then check its done that, then send the next one bla bla bla,. thats just plain wrong, the raid card sends data to/from the disk, the disk handels the rest and uses its cach to help, so thats running at 300mb/s (for SATA2) or even old IDE133, thats 133meg a sec, way faster than the disk can actually read/write from the platters.

so what if your OS install containes lots of different sized files ?  weve already established that even with a badl set stripe size that raid0 is still faster then a single disk (and id argue its way faster)


I assume you are refering to the the following quote:
This pretty picture changes into a nightmare when we try to write the 8192KB file. In this case, to write the file, the RAID controller must break it into no less than 4096 blocks, each 2KB in size. From here, the RAID card must pass pairs of the blocks to the drives in the array, wait for the drive to write the information, and then send the next 2KB blocks. This process is repeated 4096 times and the extra time required to perform the breakups, send the information in pieces, and move the drive actuator to various places on the disk all add up to an extreme bottleneck.

Reading the information back is just as painful. To recreate the 8192KB file, the RAID controller must gather information from 4096 places on each drive. Once again, moving the hard drive head to the appropriate position 4096 times is quite time consuming.


Yes the disks will use the cache but they still have to ack the incoming blocks to say they have received them ok. It was not meaning that you had to actually wait for the data to be physically written to the disk.
There are also issues with file system fragmentation and - ext2fs on RAID0 can suffer really badly - would need to read up on NTFS to see how it arranges data on the disk.

Quote

yeah, so youve got twice the chance of a catastrophic failure, if i buy 2 lottery tickets ive got twice the chance of winning, its still naff all chance tho ;)


SATA and PATA drives suck... they really do suck. Push them hard and they will die. Why do you think SCSI is still used in production systems, no sane sysadmin would run SATA on a production box where data integraty mattered.

Quote

and as said above, were talking about people running raid1 for the preformance increase here, this isnt people who have 2 identical drives, decide they might as well run raid and cant decide which rout to go it is.
so really were compairing a raid1 box to a non raid box, so backups are just as important either way arnt they ?


RAID1 vs no raid:
Reads much faster on RAID1.
Writes same speed on both.

RAID != backup, never has and never will.

Cornet

Re:New PC
Reply #42 on: April 17, 2006, 21:37:16 PM
Quote from: neXus
Waterblock from paulus, his are really nice
keyboard - get a decent one this time m8, not a old naf one, get a nice logictech, same with mouse, or the razors.

Looked at psu, yeah, nice when you spending that amount ^^


Too slow, all ordered.  And will be using the same cheapo £2 keyboard as it was perfectly fine for me.

Re:New PC
Reply #43 on: April 17, 2006, 22:00:28 PM
Knighty.

No I didnt write it myself if you wish to read the (guess) 100 or so page document.. please do: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/arch-storage/part1/index.html

New PC
Reply #44 on: April 17, 2006, 22:26:30 PM
cornet, your one of those annoying people, you talk sh*t, then when you get pulled up on it, you talk more sh*t to cover it up, if that sh*t dont work, youll talk about some other sh*t instead, theres no point talking to you if you dont listen.

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