Author Topic: A Level Results  (Read 4651 times)

  • Offline Beaker

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A Level Results
Reply #15 on: August 17, 2006, 22:22:23 PM
Quote from: sexytw
True, it is A-E grades for A level. But looking at the figures on pass rates (from BBC):

2001: 89.6%
2002: 94.3%
2003: 95.4%
2004: 96.0%
2005: 96.2%

a 6.6% increase in 4 years is pretty big, and with more people than ever taking the exams it should be going down if anything.


but remember that in Modern Culture its considered a bad thing for the word "fail" to appear on anything.  Personally I think its a good word for people, bloody good motivation word.  Nobody wants to be referred to as A Failure, I heard some Do-Gooder talking about "Alternative Pass" when what she meant was the dude she referred to was a failure at everything.

  • Offline Dave

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #16 on: August 17, 2006, 22:40:29 PM
% system would be far more useful - just give you a % mark based on where you came compared to everyone else who took the exam

no arguments then tbh.. top 10% will automatically be included in the 90-100% mark & employers & universitys will actually have a way of comapring candidates

A Level Results
Reply #17 on: August 17, 2006, 22:50:16 PM
Agreed.

Like IQ tests are referenced, you are in the top x percentile. Much more useful to everyone. Then everyone knows whats going on.

Formerly sexytw

A Level Results
Reply #18 on: August 17, 2006, 22:51:59 PM
Quote from: sexytw
Agreed.

Like IQ tests are referenced, you are in the top x percentile. Much more useful to everyone. Then everyone knows whats going on.



Yeah, makes sense to me.

  • Offline Thrawn

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #19 on: August 18, 2006, 01:37:07 AM
Quote from: Dave
% system would be far more useful - just give you a % mark based on where you came compared to everyone else who took the exam

no arguments then tbh.. top 10% will automatically be included in the 90-100% mark & employers & universitys will actually have a way of comapring candidates


Well that is the way they are going - from next year individual module grades will be available to unis as well as overall grades. Wouldnt have been great for me as I had a couple of mediocre 65%s pulled up by a couple of 97% grades in one or two of mine.

I would dispute the statement that the rise in pass rate and A grade pass rate is only to do with falling standards. In some a-levels certainly the standards are lower in some respects but these are not the only factors. Also you have to remember two other facts

1) The people who are saying a-levels are easier now are people who took them in the past and are perhaps a little annoyed that people seem to be getting top grades more easily these days.

2)Statisticians are bloody liars! Well not quite but stats can be presented in a more favourable light.

For example one point that hasnt been made is that the AS A grade rate is significantly lower than that of the A2 rate. Something like 17.5% as comapred to 23/24%. This would indicate to me at least that the ability to try more subjects in your first year then stick with your stronger subjects may mean people end up with higher grades as they end up taking exams in their stronger areas where previously students taking 3 A-levels from start to finish were stuck with their choices. (An example from my own experience would be chemistry - learned after the first year that I wasnt bad at it I just couldn;t be bothered as it was bloody boring. As it happens I continued with it as I wanted 5 A-levels not 4)

Some other reasons for and increase in pass rates.

1) The modular nature means that the infiormation is fresh in your mind when you take the test. Now you could argue that taking all your exams at the end of your course ensures you dont just cram an area and then forget about it but actually learn the subject. Possibly, or it may just be that modular teaching helps to learn the subject in a structured way which makes it in turn easier to pass.

At this point though you have to ask yourself - do we want A-levels to be hard enough to keep a circa %10 A pass rate to show who are the brightest or do we award an A grade to everybody who has achieved a certain level of understanding and knowledge of the subject?

From the point of view of a top uni then clearly you want to know about the very best, but from the point of view of a less selective uni then maybe you just want all your students to have a certain understanding of a particular subject.

Then you have to ask do we apply a normal distribution to exam grades and use linear interpolation to assign people into different quotas of grades.

2)Perhaps teaching methods have improved - I personally dont think this is true but it is a point worth considering.

3) Teaching is more geared towards passing exams rather than learning about a subject and receiving a broad education. Now this I agree with, in fact in some courses we spent quite a portion of the the last term in revision classes doing exam questions rather than learning anything new about the course. Now Im not saying this is right or that this is how it should be done, but it would explain a rise in top grade passes. Also the fact that many teachers are assessed on their pass rates and can get better jobs based on this certainly gives them the impetus to persue this method.

4)The fact that there are more "soft option" courses now (media studies, social studies etc. you know what they are) which have enormous A-grade pass rates pushes the overall average up, whereas the more traditional (and increasingly neglected to the point where some courses eg. Physics are being dropped in some schools) retain more realistic grade distribution.

5)Perhaps kids are getting brighter - I certainly dont agree with this but it is a possible reason.

6)In order to standardise testing and make sure that each year has fair balanced course a large amount of repitition and predictability has come in. This combined with the exam focus of teachers means that it is easier to train people to answer predictable questions even if they are theoretically difficult.


Also people keep saying that they used O-level books to teach their A-Level courses, a couple of questions:

1) Did using these books allow people to get the top grades?

2)Could it not also be that instead of A-levels being much easier GCSES are much easier than old O-levels (a statement I really do find hard to dispute) and that we are now having to bring people all the way from below old O-level standard up to that standard and then into A-Level standard.


At the end of the day top unis havent been overly impressed by 3 or more As at A-Level for a number of years. For example 4-5 years ago I was predicted 5 As I think in my A-levels (which I didnt actually get but thats irrelevant with reagrads to my actual uni applications) which got me an interview at Cambridge uni, but then everybody was predicted the same so we were tested by them and put through various interviews to actually assess our abilities (didnt get in btw although I do partly blame the fact that I was tested on material I was to cover just after my cambridge test.)

Also this talk of bringing in extra exams or introducing an A*/A+ level at the top of the stack is all very well but we have actually had a system in place for years, although nobody has heard of it. Assuming it still runs the exams are called S.T.E.P  which are Sixth Term Examination Papers, I know a lot of the Oxbridge colleges I looked at either reccomended or required that you take these.

As for the IB system, I imagine it does stretch people more than A-Levels, but I wouldnt have wanted to take it myself as it would have stopped me concentrating entirely on my science course and have forced me to take some amount of english or foreign language or whatever (Can someone confirm what exactly the structure is?) and I really didnt want to do that. Frankly for the sort of uni course and sort of career that I was and am interested in I dont really see the point in me learning a language to A-level/ IB standard as no job ever seems to require this (they either tend to want you fluent in another language or have no requirement). Similarly I think that my level of english is more than adequte and wouldnt really have befited from two years of reading pride and prejudice and sense and sensibility (which are in fact the two major texts that a friend who did english lit at a-level studied and got nothing from unless you count being able to quote such tripe as "oh mr darcy blah blah blah" as useful).

Well didnt mean to come out with quite such a tirade but it does annoy me when people with no statistical knowledge/qaulification and who havent actually looked at a recent A-level paper and actually compared it to an older one (but I read it in the Daily Nazi I mean Daily Mail so it must be true.....) go shooting their mouths off.

PS. I after all that in my balanced opinion A-Levels are probably getting easier :P

Edit: Boody hell 1300+ words and I always used to hate writing essays!

A Level Results
Reply #20 on: August 18, 2006, 13:55:19 PM
Wow, there are certainly a number of valid points there that would lead to a greater number of high A level results.

As you say it is all down to what A levels are meant to do, prove a student can attain a specific level or to provide a method of comparing students to one another.

I guess with so many people going to uni nowadays there are degrees to seperate people now.

Formerly sexytw

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #21 on: August 18, 2006, 17:45:25 PM
I cant see the problem tbh.

Theres a simple way of testing if things are easier.  Get someone who knows their stuff to work through a modern A-level paper and an old a-level paper.  I think most who have tried will find the old right or wrong system was harder.

I actually suspect the reason grades are going up isnt because the questions themselves are getting easier but rather because the marking standard is gradually giving more points for people who have attempted a question or shown a basic understanding of whats required by the question.

The short version is yes, they are getting easier.

On the other hand, what does it matter?  With the older a-levels the universities werent requiring 4 As at a-level to do any semi competent subject whereas now they are.

The government want 50% of people in the UK to go to university and A-levels are just the guide.  I really dont see it matters that its getting easier as long as we dont approach the point where >50% of the population are getting straight As.

  • Offline Dave

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #22 on: August 18, 2006, 17:48:45 PM
Quote from: Thrawn

Also people keep saying that they used O-level books to teach their A-Level courses, a couple of questions:

1) Did using these books allow people to get the top grades?

2)Could it not also be that instead of A-levels being much easier GCSES are much easier than old O-levels (a statement I really do find hard to dispute) and that we are now having to bring people all the way from below old O-level standard up to that standard and then into A-Level standard.


1) - yes - pure maths doesnt change much

2) - well both tbh.. the maths GCSE is so much easier than the old O-Level it is a joke  - & by definition if youre having to teach stuff that used to be covered at O-level then youd end up missing out a load of stuff that would have been covered in the old A-Level & have to introduce a new one & call it say "further maths" in order to incorporate all the extra pure stuff that should have already been covered & offer some more applied maths.

maths teachers at my old school used to constantly moan about falling standards & so put a lot of us in for the first A-level maths modules at the same time as our GCSEs

  • Offline Dave

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #23 on: August 18, 2006, 22:28:05 PM
Quote from: SteveF
I cant see the problem tbh.


the problem is that universitys are taking more time to re-teach subjects that  would have previously been well covered & examined by A-levels & also there isnt much differentiation betweent he top students - if the top 24% get an A in a particular subject how can you tell who is in say the top 10% or top 5%?

My sister was among the top 3 in the country for A level chemistry when she did her A-level - she got a nice letter from the examiner congratulating her on this but in the end she has simply got an A on her certificate just like the thousands of others who took the exam.

tis all Criterion-based marking these days too whereas previously there were quotas of As and Bs - the newer system allows politicians to turn round each year & say look how standards have improved when in reality the qualification is being cheapened.


  • Offline Serious

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #24 on: August 19, 2006, 21:14:55 PM
If they are getting above a 50% pass rate then its effectively worthless for unis to find the best performers and the difficulty should be adjusted accordingly. A level exams are a lot easier than they once were.

Re:A Level Results
Reply #25 on: August 19, 2006, 21:30:10 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: SteveF
I cant see the problem tbh.


the problem is that universitys are taking more time to re-teach subjects that  would have previously been well covered & examined by A-levels & also there isnt much differentiation betweent he top students - if the top 24% get an A in a particular subject how can you tell who is in say the top 10% or top 5%?

My sister was among the top 3 in the country for A level chemistry when she did her A-level - she got a nice letter from the examiner congratulating her on this but in the end she has simply got an A on her certificate just like the thousands of others who took the exam.


you mean top 3 in the country for her examining board, as examining boards dont rank other examining boards students, as the content of A levels is not governed by a national curriculum, but a "suggestion" of what should be covered.

Same with regards to university degrees, you cant say they are reteaching A level stuff in uni, because EVERY uni differs in the way it teaches its courses, and the content within.

I can say that with the majority of my modules in uni I would be lucky if I got a "you should have covered this in the first year but heres a recap" let alone "ah you did this at a level".

  • Offline Dave

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #26 on: August 20, 2006, 03:06:01 AM
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad
Same with regards to university degrees, you cant say they are reteaching A level stuff in uni, because EVERY uni differs in the way it teaches its courses, and the content within.


yes but they are still recognising the general fall in standards

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #27 on: August 21, 2006, 17:30:26 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: SteveF
I cant see the problem tbh.


the problem is that universitys are taking more time to re-teach subjects that  would have previously been well covered & examined by A-levels & also there isnt much differentiation betweent he top students - if the top 24% get an A in a particular subject how can you tell who is in say the top 10% or top 5%?


Its simple...  I did engineering and when I went to uni the entire a-level syllabus RE: integration and differentiation (about the ontl tricky bit of A-level maths and physics) was covered in 2 revision lectures.  one month into the first year the work at a-level was obsolete as kids stuff.

Some subjects may have to recover ground but the reality for the technical subjects/sciences is uni just rockets you away from that level of difficulty so fast that you dont catch your breath till mid second year.

Its no issue.  A-levels are no longer a true qualification - theyre now just a guide as to those who can probably keep their head above water in university education and those who will fail through either lack of ability or lack of motivation to sit through lectures.

People are making too big a deal about it a-level standards lol.  Sure, 5-10 years ago sure Id be all with you but the point where a-level grades actually mean anything was so long ago the people still complaining about it are either out of touch or just bitter that they got lower grades.  Just accept a-levels are just the basic entry for 50% of the population to have a degree and move on :)



Quote
I can say that with the majority of my modules in uni I would be lucky if I got a "you should have covered this in the first year but heres a recap" let alone "ah you did this at a level".

And we have a winner - probably because hes in or been through the university system recently.  The way it works is they just say you need to know how to do something.  If youve done it before great, if you havent then you better get up to speed yourself or in tutorials very fast or you will fail.

Uni teaching in no way depends upion what you know anymore.  They work on the basis that you are capable of knowing it so its your responsible to find out how to do things yourselves.  With so many exmaining boards, so many countries contributing to the undergraduate recruitment pool and so many levels of ability and age what you did or didnt do in a 6th form at school has almost no bearing whatsoever.

  • Offline Dave

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #28 on: August 21, 2006, 17:59:48 PM
Quote from: SteveF
People are making too big a deal about it a-level standards lol.  Sure, 5-10 years ago sure Id be all with you but the point where a-level grades actually mean anything


which is exactly why people are making a big deal out of them - the qualification is getting dumbed down each year - more and more private school kids are getting to do the IB which universitys look upon very favorably 35/40 in the IB is equivalent to 4 As at ALevel btw...

most people in the state sector are still stuck with A Level qualifications that are going to put them at a dissadvantage as the qualification is continually cheapened.

as far as the job market & university entrance is concerned a bright kid with the IB, scottish highers* or the Irish leaving certificate is known to have better qualifications than the a-level students.

* yeah i know these are more like AS level but are still far supoerior to the equivalent english AS exams

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:A Level Results
Reply #29 on: August 23, 2006, 02:42:33 AM
If you accept that the A-levels have now gone to be so meaningless theyre just entry exams for uni then its really not a problem.  If the a-level decline was stopped several years ago then fine, now its simply locking the barn door after the horse has bolted.

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