Author Topic: I cant sell you that cup of soup (Read 2970 times)

Sweenster · **Reply #30 on:** December 16, 2006, 22:07:08 PM

I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #30 on: December 16, 2006, 22:07:08 PM

I would expect my local police station to look into reports i file

I would expect my local school to teach my kids

I would expect my local hospital to treat me if i became sick

I would expect my local pharmacy to give me the medicines i need.

Whilst they might not be able to offer the same everywhere i would expect them to treat me independently of my faith, sex or anything else.

"I am sorry sir I cannot look into the murder of a loved one as it is a religious holiday, come back in a few weeks time"

Religion and public services should be seperate

Zak · **Reply #31 on:** December 17, 2006, 02:36:15 AM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #31 on: December 17, 2006, 02:36:15 AM

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: Zak
Its too easy to tell someone to go elsewhere for the pill. why should they? And in any case, what if the nearest pharmacy just happens to be too far? if society is entitled to regulate the conduct of pharmacist as pre-requisite for being a monopoly and associated rewards then pharmacists have to accept that they are not the final moral judge of someones right to the morning after pill.

nah its about the personal freedom of the pharmacist - its his shop - its his call - he isnt being a moral judge of someone else he is simply refusing to compromnise his own morals - Im a liberal but Im not much of a social democrat - there isnt a monopoly on pharmacists - if one pharmacist starts losing business as a result then another can profit from it - tis a free market.

should a vegetarian chef running a vegitarian restaraunt be forced to serve meat products?

I think you missed my point. It isnt that anyone running a business shouldnt be allowed to stock what they want. It was that if someone enters the pharmacy field, then it is accepted that the patients rights, come first. this is distinctly different from saying a shop should stock whatever i want because im too lazy to walk all the way to tescos.

It is a monopoly because you or I would need a licence to dispense. That licence is controlled by a body. I cannot just open up a pharmacy. So, i dont understand why someone who is against the morning after pill would work in a field where that value would be so contested? its not as though we are referring to notions such as, "should i tell my boss i just saw x or y steal a few pencils?" no ,were referring to values that directly infringe on their some else right. The person stealing the pencil doesnt have a right to the pencil (barring all other stuff), but the person asking for the morning after pill does have a right to the pill, the only bar being the morality of the pharmacist. The pharmacist cannot say, i wont compromise on my beliefs as though it is as principaled stand against the evil and naughty naughty world we live in. No, the pharmacist is saying because i have chosen to work today here right now, youre screwed. You see the law lets me decide on whether my values are better than yours.

Again i ask, why should the morality of the pharmacist, who chooses to work in a field where a monopoly exist over dipensing medication, over-ride the moral choices of the patient?

Zak · **Reply #32 on:** December 17, 2006, 02:49:37 AM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #32 on: December 17, 2006, 02:49:37 AM

Quote from: Dave

If someone in bumfu*kvillage alabama only has one pharmacist & he happens to be a religious nut then that is thier problem not the pharmacists....

teehee...

But, what if the pharmacist refused to stock say... a pack of Rizlas and ten B & H? - would ya still feel the same?

Serious · **Reply #33 on:** December 17, 2006, 03:12:00 AM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #33 on: December 17, 2006, 03:12:00 AM

Quote from: Zak

No, the pharmacist is saying because i have chosen to work today here right now, youre screwed.

Well the chances are they would have been, probably the previous night!

Perhaps you could have worded it better?

Dave · **Reply #34 on:** December 17, 2006, 13:48:07 PM

I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #34 on: December 17, 2006, 13:48:07 PM

Quote from: Sweenster

I would expect my local police station to look into reports i file

I would expect my local school to teach my kids

I would expect my local hospital to treat me if i became sick

I would expect my local pharmacy to give me the medicines i need.

Whilst they might not be able to offer the same everywhere i would expect them to treat me independently of my faith, sex or anything else.

"I am sorry sir I cannot look into the murder of a loved one as it is a religious holiday, come back in a few weeks time"

Religion and public services should be seperate

I think youve missed the point I was making

drawing a comparison to a school refusing to teach kids is a bit silly - the notional religuous nut pharmacist isnt refusing to distribute medicines he is refusing to stock a certain type of medicine - just as a local school may decide not to teach a certain subject or cover a certain topic. The head of a school PE dept might for example decide that the game of rugby encourages violence & therefore refuse to allow it. Other schools (public schools for example ) might force all kids to play rugby unless they have a note from thier parents. some schools teach religious studies in different ways - some kids have notes from thier parents opting them out of RS lessons or sex education lessons.

Secondly the pharmacist isnt employed by the state - he is licenced & regulated by it but not employed by it - if the pharmacist was employed by the state then Id agree with your he is providing a public service argument - i.e. a pharmacist employed in an NHS hospital can damn well provide any legal medication required by the tax paying patients who require it regardless of any personal religious views he/she has. However an individual operating thier own business on your local highstreet has the right to chose what services he or she provides regardless of the fact they are operating in the health sector. Just to expand on this point a bit take a look at other self employed health professionals.

You cant insist that all general practitioners also employ a practice nurse - some will some wont - it is up to them. Some GPs will offer minor surgery others will decide not to carry out any minor surgical procedures and so have to refer you to a hospital.

Not all dentists will be willing to accept NHS patients, others may simply refuse to take on new NHS patients but will keep the current ones they have - that again is up to them and down to thier personal beliefs regarding the fairness of the fees the NHS is willing to pay them.

You cant expect independent self employed health professionals to offer every single treatment in existance & so they will make choices as to what to offer - the reasoning behind the choices they make is irrelevant - it is thier choice to make regardless of that reasoning.

Serious · **Reply #35 on:** December 17, 2006, 14:05:36 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #35 on: December 17, 2006, 14:05:36 PM

Would be more exact to say that a pharmacist isnt directly employed by the state, their company is going to be filling a lot of NHS prescriptions and that requires the state to employ the company on contract. The company then employs the pharmacist.

Boots the Chemist is employed by the state to dispense medicines for the NHS, they employ pharmacists to actually do it.

Dave · **Reply #36 on:** December 17, 2006, 14:11:50 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #36 on: December 17, 2006, 14:11:50 PM

actually that has thrown up anther situation

a pharmacist employed by a larger org such as boots - IMO they ought to dispense whatever legal medication thier employers require them to regardless of thier personal beliefs

tis only the independent self employed ones that Im arguing should have the freedom of choice

the others can either do as they are told by thier employers or negotiate some sort of agreement via whatever professional body represents pharmacists.

Also the state doesnt employ them or contract them - it simply licences and regulates them - yes they recieve money from the state rather than directly from the NHS patients for the payment of prescription drugs but there is no contract or monopoly for the rights to dispense prescription drugs to NHS patients - any qualified pharmacist can set up shop & do so. they also dispense drugs on private prescriptions and sell non prescription medications. The state therefore is a customer not an employer.

M3ta7h3ad · **Reply #37 on:** December 17, 2006, 14:53:56 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #37 on: December 17, 2006, 14:53:56 PM

Quote from: Dave

actually that has thrown up anther situation

a pharmacist employed by a larger org such as boots - IMO they ought to dispense whatever legal medication thier employers require them to regardless of thier personal beliefs

tis only the independent self employed ones that Im arguing should have the freedom of choice

the others can either do as they are told by thier employers or negotiate some sort of agreement via whatever professional body represents pharmacists.

Also the state doesnt employ them or contract them - it simply licences and regulates them - yes they recieve money from the state rather than directly from the NHS patients for the payment of prescription drugs but there is no contract or monopoly for the rights to dispense prescription drugs to NHS patients - any qualified pharmacist can set up shop & do so. they also dispense drugs on private prescriptions and sell non prescription medications. The state therefore is a customer not an employer.

You dont need to be a pharmacist to start a pharmacy either.

You just need to employ one.

Serious · **Reply #38 on:** December 17, 2006, 14:59:01 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #38 on: December 17, 2006, 14:59:01 PM

employment is a looser term than you think, Dave, you can employ someone, or a company to work for you, even if its just selling you a tin of beans you are employing them to supply you with it.

Its easy enough to state in the regulations that they have to supply all NHS prescribed medicines, if they dont then the state removes their licence to trade. In this situation an independent chemist would find it impossible not to prescribe emergency contraception.

Dave · **Reply #39 on:** December 17, 2006, 16:41:55 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #39 on: December 17, 2006, 16:41:55 PM

yes it is a lose term but youre trying to streach it a bit too far - employment concerns hiring people to provide a service

In every day conversation youd normally use it to describe someone on your payroll - but yes you could perhaps use it to describe a lawyer or doctor whos services youd contracted.

However it doesnt stretch as far as goods - purchasing goods from someone does not consititute employing them to provide you with those goods - you are exchainging money for a product - that is simply a trade - the coutner party to that trade isnt employed under any definition of the term. one party has parted with goods in exchange for cash the other has parted with cash in exchange for goods - neither party is an employee of the other.

Pharmacists arent hired by the state to provide a service - the state merely subsidises some of the products purchased from the pharmacist by his customers. Yes they have to be licenced and regulated but then again so do plenty of other self employed professionals.

anyway back to the topic before the thread goes way off course

Quote

Its easy enough to state in the regulations that they have to supply all NHS prescribed medicines, if they dont then the state removes their licence to trade. In this situation an independent chemist would find it impossible not to prescribe emergency contraception.

well yes of course they could do that - they could also decide that all dentists have to take on NHS patients, they could ban private hospitals and could make illegal all alternative therapy practitioners.

but it would be pretty sh*t if they did as it simply removes the personal freedom of the individuals employed in those professions.

Serious · **Reply #40 on:** December 17, 2006, 17:05:13 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #40 on: December 17, 2006, 17:05:13 PM

Youre wrong but TBH its slitting hairs and really I cant be bothered

Dave · **Reply #41 on:** December 17, 2006, 17:16:53 PM

Re:I cant sell you that cup of soup

Reply #41 on: December 17, 2006, 17:16:53 PM

nope youre wrong

- but youre right about it being splitting hairs - & also I cant be bothered either.

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Author Topic: I cant sell you that cup of soup (Read 2970 times)