Author Topic: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia  (Read 4087 times)

  • Offline Serious

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Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
on: September 07, 2017, 07:21:29 AM
Absolutely no link to global warming at all.. YET!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41182991

It does look suspicious with all the countries trying to convert to green energy, including the US - despite Trumpet.

Just because people believe something is true doesn't mean it is, think of all the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus....

You are far more likely to believe something is true if it fits your world picture and you want it to be true.

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 08:25:30 AM
Hurricanes have been around for millions of years.
You cant blame it on global warming or climate change or whatever else its called.
The earth warms up, the earth cools down. Something it has done for billions of years.
Pretty much makes 100 or 200 years of records of weather meaningless.


While humans may be attributing to the current cycle, the earth would still be doing its warming up / cooling down cycle anyway (& I dont mean the 4 yearly cycles of Autumn Winter, Spring & Summer!).


So much of our weather is dictated by the Sun anyway, as well as earth motion around it. Who's to say we are just not passing a large part of a sun hot spot, are we are closer to the sun by a few thousand miles than we was 100 years ago.

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 11:15:47 AM
Who's to say we are just not passing a large part of a sun hot spot

scientists

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 14:37:26 PM
Who's to say we are just not passing a large part of a sun hot spot

scientists

the same scientists who are getting millions and millions into investigating climate change.

Its all one big scam.

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 20:21:52 PM
I thought all the money was in denying it ?  oil companies, coal companies, power stations etc. etc. etc. ?

also you said climate change doesn't cause hurricanes, but aren't they caused by differing water/air temperatures ?  and sea temperatures are at the highest every since records began ?


solar/wind power is (now) cheaper than nuke/coal/gas... so you don't need to push climate change for investment, you're going to make a profit anyway ?

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #5 on: September 08, 2017, 07:45:32 AM
its one of them 'research' things that scientists do. Push something that is hard to prove or disprove, as the only way of knowing for sure will take time!
Hurricanes have happened since the day dot. They can only occur in warm waters. Not like we get them developing in North Sea!
Late August through to End of Sept is the peak of hurricane season, thats why there are alway good deals on for holidays in the Caribbean.


You get a storm at sea, this causes rain to fall, yet the warm waters evaporate & taking warm air with it, this feeds the storm, wash & repeat. Thats why they always die out when they hit the US coast. No more water, no more warm water.


as for solar/wind power - maybe climate change is just the excuse needed because of the cost in solar/wind compared to coal. Coal is expensive because less & less is being mined. Similar with Oil - Opec throttle how much is outputted. You still need oil/coal power stations, as not every day is windy enough for the wind farms & I do not really know how much Solar energy is stored (for night time use) compared to how much of it is pumped straight into the national grid to be used.
Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 07:49:17 AM by Eggtastico #187;

  • Offline Serious

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Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #6 on: September 08, 2017, 10:54:15 AM
Egg, do not deceive yourself. Hurricanes, once dropped down to tropical storms, can rush across the Atlantic and hit Britain hard. And just because they aren't called hurricanes by the time they get to the UK doesn't mean they don't have hurricane force winds.


Michael Fish never lived this down, even though he was technically right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Storm_of_1987

UK is not immune.
Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:59:34 AM by Serious #187;

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #7 on: September 08, 2017, 16:41:19 PM
its one of them 'research' things that scientists do. Push something that is hard to prove or disprove, as the only way of knowing for sure will take time!

everything I've seen says (and I just checked again) says over 97% of climate scientists agree climate change /global warming is a real thing and we're causing it

if you check up on the "scientists" to disagree with it who we keep hearing about, they're nothing to do with climate studies etc.... wtf does a school biology teacher know about it compared to someone who's spent their life studying it ?


Quote
Hurricanes have happened since the day dot. They can only occur in warm waters

yeah... the sea has warmed up 2'C in the last 10 or so years... 2'C doesn't sound like much but apparently that's crap loads


Quote
as for solar/wind power - maybe climate change is just the excuse needed because of the cost in solar/wind compared to coal. Coal is expensive because less & less is being mined. Similar with Oil - Opec throttle how much is outputted. You still need oil/coal power stations, as not every day is windy enough for the wind farms & I do not really know how much Solar energy is stored (for night time use) compared to how much of it is pumped straight into the national grid to be used

that's wrong, solar and wind are cheaper than cola/gas/nuke now - that's why everyone's rushing to install a crap load

thing with solar and wind (and hydro) is once you've installed them that's pretty much it, they run practically cost free for the next 30 years

thing about wind and 'what do we do when it's not windy' is that it's always windy somewhere, idea being you build more wind turbines than you need so while one location isn't doing much the other locations make up for it

plus.. we have giant grid interconnects running to Northern Ireland, Southern Ireland, France,  Belgium and the Netherlands.... plus they're already building another to Belgium and then new ones to Norway, Belgium and Iceland

when it's dark or calm somewhere it's sunny or windy somewhere else

plus most of Norway's power comes from hydro - they have so much hydro power they give electricity away for free in the winter... they could sell that to us cheap instead :-)


you're right about storage, there's no where near enough for us to go without coal/gas/nuke... right now it's cheaper to run coal/gas/nuke than it is to build enough storage to dump them.... storage prices are dropping fast, so give it a few years and it'll be cheaper to store solar/wind than to keep running coal/gas/nuke plants

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Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 12:39:05 PM
Nuclear fission produces a lot of power, but they are costly to build and when they reach the end of their working life are really expensive to decommission. Then you have the issue of keeping the spent fuel safe fpr a few thousand to million years. IT is horrendously expensive and the Conservative government have promised the French/Chinese consortium a ridiculous amount of money in subsidies to build and run the plant. Reality is this is just not economically viable.

Oil, the British and French government have announced plans to stop cars that use petrol or diesel engines. China has followed suit although not given a date yet. Generation of electricity using oil is very costly and normally only done at times of very high demand.

Coal is amongst the worst fuels, it has a lot of sulphur, it is also now more expensive than solar/wind.

Solar/wind energy isn't constant. Presently available electricity storage options relies on expensive lithium ion batteries, there isn't enough lithium available to make all the batteries the world would need. Research is ongoing in to other options. Other options may be more reliable than wind, tidal water current, geothermal and wave generation could all be options, depending on what is available locally.

None of this is 'cost free', development and construction costs, but the subsidies paid are a fraction of those paid to the oil, coal and nuclear industries.

In the long term we have the option of hydrogen fusion. That will take time and is still being developed.

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 14:11:06 PM
I work for a big oil company so I'm subjected to a lot of research on this kind of thing, my 2c below.

Renewable energy is going to happen for many good reasons:
- Its renewable
- Generating it doesn't create toxic fumes (wether or not you believe in climate change, who wants smog?)
- A recent addition: its genuinely a lower cost option

The only question is how fast and how complete will the transition be. There are a few missing links but a lot of good research close to resolving them (see liquid hydrogen as a storage and transport medium for renewable energy). China, the highest electricity user in the world by far (6000Twh vs second place US at 4000 Twh) are building solar at an astonishing rate.

Oil doesn't go away, power generation and combustion engines are only a part of the usage spectrum, but it s much more balanced picture with renewables in the mix.

Transition fuels like natural gas and LNG will have have a good decade or so while the world transitions and technology fills any gaps.

Wether we're contributing to global warning or not is kind of irrelevant, the earth is warning, thats f**king all sorts of sh*t up. Separately, pollution is killing thousands of people and making thousands more peoples lives worse, we dont know what to do with our nuclear waste, and wind and solar is cheapest. Oil and coal need to be artificially supported to remain competitive.




Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 14:40:22 PM by addictweb #187;
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Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 11:19:37 AM
Pretty much exactly what I thought. we have already reached the tipping point. Even offshore wind is much cheaper than nuclear and they haven't even maximised it yet. They could easily put underwater turbines on the same units to produce power from the tide, storms and currents. I suspect most of them could be retrofitted to harvest more energy  :ptu:

In the mean time can we have a rapturous round of applause as the Caribbean and US combine to sing "What are we going to do about (hurricane) Maria?" :panic: :panic: :panic: :dunno:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41302157

Been talking with someone who lives in southern Florida, they don't expect to get back to their home for at least 2 to 3 months. They don't even know if their home is still there yet, or how damaged it is, and that doesn't include Maria visiting.  :(

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Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 21:27:44 PM
The cynic/conspiracy theorist in me has always felt that the energy companies either have had suitable alternatives for a while or could R&D them quickly, if they had the inclination.

The reason they haven't would be because it's more profitable to use up the fossil fuels, drive up the prices so people are used to paying £££££, and then once it gets to the point where there's either not enough fuel or the profit drops off because most people can't afford it, bring out the miracle new alternative fuel, at a slightly lower price that people will be more than willing to pay...even though the reality would be the production cost could be so low they could charge a fraction of what they do.

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 00:11:22 AM
electric is the only real way forward

hydrogen is a pain to transport and store, and massively inefficient to produce

and whatever liquid/gas fuel you use, it needs to have long carbon chains to have high energy density... and burning anything with long carbon chains releases a load of co2


it might take a while but electricity will fall in price quite a bit, wind/solar/storage keep getting cheaper all the time


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Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 17:07:16 PM
The cynic/conspiracy theorist in me has always felt that the energy companies either have had suitable alternatives for a while or could R&D them quickly, if they had the inclination.

Point is up to now it's always been cheaper to use oil, gas or coal. Other methods of producing electricity needed huge amounts of research and investment and they didn't see any advantage in changing. The tetraethyl lead scandal shows why corporations would rather risk people's health than lose out on potential profits. They knew the risks from the beginning, plus they have many other options, and still went with lead because they could patent that option. In case you haven't read up about it Thomas Midgley Jr. also invented Freon, the first CFC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.

hydrogen is a pain to transport and store, and massively inefficient to produce

and whatever liquid/gas fuel you use, it needs to have long carbon chains to have high energy density... and burning anything with long carbon chains releases a load of co2

Hydrogen is inefficient to produce now, it may be much more cost effective in the future. There is plenty of research going on  As for transporting it we have huge pipelines going across the continent to the UK already carrying methane gas. This is the simplest hydrocarbon going, one carbon, 4 hydrogen, and is an option for production instead of pure hydrogen gas. That can be used in highly efficient fuel cells or present gas burning power stations. As it would use carbon from the atmosphere the result would be carbon neutral.

Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 17:10:56 PM by Serious #187;

Re: Harvey, irma, Jose, Katia
Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 16:32:11 PM
The cynic/conspiracy theorist in me has always felt that the energy companies either have had suitable alternatives for a while or could R&D them quickly, if they had the inclination.

The reason they haven't would be because it's more profitable to use up the fossil fuels, drive up the prices so people are used to paying £££££, and then once it gets to the point where there's either not enough fuel or the profit drops off because most people can't afford it, bring out the miracle new alternative fuel, at a slightly lower price that people will be more than willing to pay...even though the reality would be the production cost could be so low they could charge a fraction of what they do.

From an insiders point of view I disagree. Energy companies have invested heavily in carbon trading (and hence renewable sources in general). BP in particular lost out massively when they invested heavily in their "beyond petroleum" phase of renewable investment (they've stepped back since that poorly timed direction change and it also turned to industry off the idea for a number of years but others are taking another shot now).

They all have enough smart people to know their days are numbered if they dont evolve, and they have the revenue to invest into becoming a future proof company. They all have emissions trading and investment divisions, biofuel plants, solar plants etc etc. Nothing is being hidden, the reality is the return on investment is just larger in fossil fuels at the moment (but way less so since oil fell, very few new projects have had final investment decisions (FID) in the last 2 years). They're all following the money, the margins just aren't quite there for renewables but they all have the people and projects in place to make sure they're prepared for when it does happen.

If any company had something that made more than oil/gas/hydrocarbon it wouldnt hide it from the world, it would make as much as possible from it; if they didnt someone else would.



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