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National 20mph limit on urban (30mph) roads.

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M3ta7h3ad:
The Welsh Government are soon to make (next year) 20mph the default national speed limit for urban roads. Where roads were once 30mph, they will become 20mph unless signposted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62020427

Billed as a nationwide move towards safety it's come under a lot of fire from drivers. Trial areas are already underway, most of Cardiff is now a 20mph zone and there are other places it's been applied as part of the trial.

Feedback has been mixed, with proponents citing that they love the new speed limit as it reduces noise and increases road safety, etc. Antagonists are saying it leads to increased traffic, will increase pollution and engine wear, unreasonable increase in journey times, etc.

What do you think?

M3ta7h3ad:
So I voted For.

I used to be against, in fact vehmently against it if there was a protest I would have attended it.

I felt like it was not going far enough in urban streets. That town and city centres should be pedestrianised with more provision for out of city/town parking and better public transport links into the city. That speed limits on major roads should be raised and that high speed links between major population centres should be increased.

But now... now i'm not so sure I was right in the first place.

The above wants of mine will take billions of tax payers money to make happen, they won't suit all and we'll undoubtedly find some way of cocking it up. It's a pipe dream having cities like centre parcs.

A national 20mph limit on urban roads though... That's bloody doable and comes with so many benefits that pedestrianising a place does not.


* It doesn't leave mobility impaired people at a disadvantage.
* It increases pedestrian safety due to slower moving traffic.
* Average speed of traffic during rush hour in most cities is <18 mph*.
* It lures cyclists who would use pavements illegally and dangerously onto the roads as the traffic is moving at a pace they could actually outpace.
* It essentially turns every single 30mph road into cycling infrastructure. There's no need for segregated lanes if all traffic is doing 20mph.
Crucially and I think this might be one of the justifications for the Welsh Gov opting for 20mph. Every single car with a Euro NCAP 5* rating since 2019 and a great many who are not 5* from before 2019 have Autonomous Emergency Braking systems. These systems can completely negate an impact at speeds between 15-25mph. No more run over pedestrians in urban environments. Given ~500 pedestrians are killed per year on roads in the UK, this could make a difference even if driving ability doesn't improve.

Essentially, if you need the flexibility of a high speed motorised vehicle you can still use one, there's a drop in the speed limit by 10mph but you can still drive there.

If you don't and just need to get somewhere fast, you can cycle, scoot, whatever, your way across the city/town (speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles - this is also being used in the news to fuel anti-cycling sentiment currently).

Then there is the thing i've seen about "this is all a ploy to get us to use bikes and public transport!" true, it could be, but why is this a bad thing? I don't get it.

*In fact I checked my commute into Cardiff (my route into cardiff covers areas that aren't restricted to 20mph in the trial yet) the other week, I averaged 9mph. Fastest day was 12mph.

Clock'd 0Ne:
It depends what is being considered as 'urban roads'. Heavily pedestrianised town centres, sure, go nuts. Major thoroughfares and roads that don't have extensively used footpaths, crossings, traffic lights and other traffic calming measures, hell no. Keep things moving.

Also, arguments about using public transport, cycling, etc are the ideas of people that clearly don't have kids and single person lifestyles. It would be impossible for me to gether the family for a lovely jaunt into town on our bikes to go shopping.

M3ta7h3ad:

--- Quote from: Clock'd 0Ne on July 17, 2022, 07:05:04 AM ---It depends what is being considered as 'urban roads'. Heavily pedestrianised town centres, sure, go nuts. Major thoroughfares and roads that don't have extensively used footpaths, crossings, traffic lights and other traffic calming measures, hell no. Keep things moving.

Also, arguments about using public transport, cycling, etc are the ideas of people that clearly don't have kids and single person lifestyles. It would be impossible for me to gether the family for a lovely jaunt into town on our bikes to go shopping.

--- End quote ---

Fair concerns. I'm not sure myself but so far in Cardiff it's any road that would have been considered 30, is now 20... with a few areas where they've placed 30 signs to keep the speed limit up. Essentially lampposts on a street without signage now equals 20mph not 30mph.

Why is cycling or using public transport impossible with a family? People travel with entire families on bikes all the time now and as a kid we used to ride the bus and train to go everywhere as we only had one car and my dad worked away.

That said, the major benefit of 20mph roads being that they don't restrict methods of transport in the same way pedestrianisation would and 20mph roads don't restrict road widths for large vehicles for example like dedicated cycling infrastructure can do.

If you needed the flexibility of a car, you can still drive it with all the family on board, tow a caravan if you like and once you're out of the urban area, you're back to main roads and high speeds to get to your destination until the last few miles.

If you don't, well you no longer need dedicated infrastructure for your method of transport any more as you now have considerably friendlier roads to ride on/walk on/scoot on/skate on/whatever on.

I don't know I may live to regret my "for", but I've been thinking a while about it (replied to some of the gov consultation negatively about it before) and I'm kinda optimistic that actually this is no bad thing. With the uptake of EVs, legalisation of LEMs, etc and cheaper more accessible "last mile" transport solutions turning our urban areas into the equiv of bruge, copenhagen or amsterdam kinda appeals to me.

soopahfly:
Ignoring the pollution aspect, as they're pushing for the death of petrol and diesel cars anyway, I think it's a good idea.
I doubt they'll make main roads 20 but side roads and residential streets I think 20s enough.
Ever since passing my test I don't think I've done more than 25 on residential streets.
Bike licence teaches you way more about hazard perception than the car test does, or at least did 20 year back when I did mine.

What speed do EVs stop making that choir of the dead noise?

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