Author Topic: Sci fi space travel?  (Read 8065 times)

  • Offline Quixoticish

  • Posts: 2,953
  • Hero Member
  • Slayer of ninjas, pirates and vikings.
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #60 on: January 20, 2009, 10:34:37 AM
Serious, Haldeman did study astronomy and physics at University before he was drafted so I have no doubt that the science in the book is sound, or at least as sound as he wants it to be for the narrative purposes of the novel.

Regarding this particular gripe you have Zpyder is correct. My grasp of physics is in no way scholarly but from my understanding the amount of heat given off by the heat exchangers is a lot more than body temperature and frozen helium and hydrogen can explode when temperature is applied as there is a tremendous amount of energy stored in frozen helium/hydrogen. In fact so much so that frozen helium/hydrogen mix would actually make a suitably energetic rocket fuel, especially if the hydrogen is suspended in the helium. I recall this exact thing being discussed some years ago now and the conclusion was that even a comparatively moderate application of temperature would result in an immediate explosive temperature increase.

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Sci fi space travel?
Reply #61 on: January 20, 2009, 14:20:43 PM
In order to freeze a gas you have to take almost all of the available energy out, its damn difficult and thats why its so cold! You do have E=MC2 still but the level of actual heat energy is minimal. Once you have achieved that you can shove energy back in, maybe from a nuclear reactor. At that point you would get massive expansion as solid changes to gas. Really though you want liquid gas rather than solid and gasses such as nitrogen have more mass for a given volume, thus making a potentially better alternative. The external shuttle tank on the Space shuttle contains liquid gas, it doesnt seem to explode unless you put a burning leak from a SRB onto it...

Lets accept that the gas ice does explode under the conditions, you could put a protective cover/grid over the fins, ice cant touch fins, that would prevent the issue. With geniuses like hes sending up that issue should be fixed, or at least minimalised, within days.

---

Just a few pages later he gives them spacesuits with little chunks of plutonium as an emergency power source. This really isnt a good option and any nuclear scientist in the 50s would have been able to explain why.

---

Actually all this is moot, As zpyder says, it wasnt written for someone like me but someone with a far more average background, they would have no higher science and certainly wouldnt question it. I was aware of this in the first few pages, I have to effectively lower my capabilities to the books level.

As for his education, even the best can get issues wrong, I know that Ive done the same, and Im not anywhere near the best. I also have extremely easy access to informational sources he didnt have. Science has also progressed, massively in some areas, hardly at all in others.

Thats why Im still reading.

  • Offline Quixoticish

  • Posts: 2,953
  • Hero Member
  • Slayer of ninjas, pirates and vikings.
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #62 on: January 20, 2009, 14:38:28 PM
We really should know better than to disagree with you by now.

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #63 on: January 20, 2009, 15:11:19 PM
As you said, zpyder is right, I try and pull anything like this to bits, it seems like an irresistible urge to look closely and break things. Im not quite up to torturing teddies though.

Then again how many scientists are the same? One avian expert was engrossed in a film until he heard a bird call, it was from an entirely different area to where the film was supposed to be and just that destroyed his focus. For some even the most seemingly minor issue is huge, most would say wrong bird, so what? I would!

Ive also admitted I might be wrong on the issue of the solid gas, although until someone actually tries it... zpyder, fancy an experiment? :twisted:

I think hes going on about frozen CO2, which does go directly from solid to liquid, most others dont unless there are very special conditions.

The important thing is hes pointing out the place is damn dangerous, and nobody could disagree with that assessment.

  • Offline zpyder

  • Posts: 6,946
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #64 on: January 20, 2009, 16:05:15 PM
The plutonium thing could be explained just by the fact that the tech has obviously advanced, whos to say they havent developed much better shielding for the radiation?

I agree, not protecting the heatsinks, to the point of falling on your back = break the suit, is silly, but the same could be said for the assault rifle issued to the GIs in vietnam, a muddy and wet environment, that jammed when they got dirty and wet.

Though you can take it as a sci-fi book on its own, it can also be looked into as a sci-fi book about vietnam, but as I wasnt alive back then there is not much I know about vietnam, though the gun bit does make sense.

Also, I presume you mean frozen CO2 going from solid to gas, and not liquid?

At the end of the day he gets the basis of combat on an alien planet right...a single suit rupture = almost certain death, and manages to set aside just how out of place the troops are whilst theyre expected to fight etc!

  • Offline Quixoticish

  • Posts: 2,953
  • Hero Member
  • Slayer of ninjas, pirates and vikings.
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #65 on: January 20, 2009, 17:50:36 PM
Quote
Though you can take it as a sci-fi book on its own, it can also be looked into as a sci-fi book about vietnam, but as I wasnt alive back then there is not much I know about vietnam, though the gun bit does make sense.


Exactly. This is and what science fiction has always been about, sci-fi is really just a setting used for de-familiarisation. The very beginnings of sci-fi were to set a story in a place where contemporary issues can be discussed without arousing suspicion and this is what separates good science fiction written by authors who understand their genre and subject from the ten-a-penny sci-fi/fantasy crap that seems so prevalent these days.

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #66 on: January 20, 2009, 19:02:05 PM
Quote from: zpyder

Also, I presume you mean frozen CO2 going from solid to gas, and not liquid?


Carbon dioxide, despite being a fairly common gas, has at least one incredibly strange property, it melts at -56.6°C but it boils at only -78.5 °C (yes, I checked the temps). So before it melts it boils off. It cannot, under normal circumstances, be a liquid. going the other way it goes through deposition, again no liquid state. When he says sublimation its turning from solid directly to gas, for oxygen that would require a huge instantaneous temperature rise, it melts at about 50 kelvin but boils at over 90.

And good point about its Vietnam, cause what hes going on about during training is what was used there. Writer admits it too.

Sci-fi is, as ChrisH so rightly points out, is often used to look at current issues without having to examine them within your own time frame. Often these issues produce such fervour that it is impossible to discuss them directly. Star Trek TOS handled issues like race relations and politics which were extremely difficult topics to examine calmly in the 60s. If its locked away safely in sci-fi you might not need to scream.

I keep hitting similar items, even though Im not intending to. I think its unavoidable. Mostly though its asking the question, what if?

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #67 on: January 20, 2009, 20:39:06 PM
There on a planet, right on top of a huge building that detects large outputs of energy and absorbs it. The thing nearly killed them during re-entry because it was absorbing energy from a nearby energy source (the heat shield) and it simply sucked heat energy from their bodies. It did the same when one of them fired a plasma rifle. Insulation isnt any help.

I then wrote that they need a laser communications transmitter. They dont have one, but they do have a replicator.

I had written this before I realised what would obviously happen. :banghead:

I think this is all quite dodgy anyway.

Quote

Corvack waited a few seconds before returning to the shuttle and entering. He closed the door, turned on the gas taps again, thefuel cell started again and began to heat the place up. He then pulugged EXI’s suit directly into the power, it’s internal heating would hopefully do the rest. The display indicated she she was still breathing and had a hartbeat.  Finally he looked around and asked, ‘is everyone else OK?’

The Doctor waved from inside his battlesuit, ‘I’m fine, if frozen.’

“Just a bit cold,” Slade answered through his microphone, “although the rep stays off while EXI is in here from now on. I would like to be moved out too before someone tries the thing again. I don’t think she realised the power level required to make a communications laser would attract the attention of the absorption field.”

‘It damn nearly screwed us all again,’ Corvack complained, ‘and her laser looks more like a genetically deformed monster banana from a party cracker. Plug it in and...’

‘A very effective micro firework,’ Bakks considered, I doubt if we need the plasma rifles so we can use the laser aiming devices from those to rig something up?’

‘It’s a bit far but worth a try. Looks like Miss suicide is waking up again.’

‘Who put the heat outside?’

‘You did! Nearly killed the doc too, and Slade. I think we have a pair of insane lemmings on board, breed you and I’ve no idea what we might get.’ Corvack did a Frankenstein’s monster walk up the isle. ‘Doctor, send up the kites, we need more power, more power!’

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #68 on: January 22, 2009, 20:02:08 PM
Just a thought but, we might be better off in the search for new worlds if Mars was the second planet and Venus the fourth.

Mars has a relatively thin atmosphere, so it would be better off closer in. Although then it might have lost the water it has.

Venus has a lot of insulator gas, CO2, etc. Moving it out would cool it off. Again though, put plant life, such as algae, on it and you might end up with snowball earth.

Anyone knows someone who actually handles this kind of planet physics?

Ive now nearly finished the first draft of the book above. Ive started the other one, but I dont know. Ive also got three other ideas. It seems these are like buses, except rather than waiting an hour you wait six months... :(

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #69 on: January 23, 2009, 04:13:33 AM
Ive just about finished, the book is 95773 words, which means it will easily go above 100K when I edit through. What I thought was going to be a big battle ended up taking 354 words though. More a slaughter than a battle, one side was ambushed - in space? :/

  • Offline zpyder

  • Posts: 6,946
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #70 on: January 23, 2009, 09:54:40 AM
Is 100k the limit for a book? I know there are limits for classification purposes for novels and novellas etc.

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #71 on: January 23, 2009, 15:44:51 PM
Depends on the publisher, 80-120,000 used to be the sweet spot but many have now stretched it up an extra 10K words. Some now regard 100K as a sort of minimum, but they will look at shorter works, they can often be waffled up quite a bit. There isnt really a maximum, some fantasy books are getting towards 300K words. The problem is each page costs to edit and print - larger books are seen by many as better value, but it also means larger prices or less profit. What can happen is a book that is too long is chopped in half, or even three (LotR, the most widely known example, started as a huge single volume and was split into a trilogy).

Then again writers dont necessarily get more for the extra words, they are usually paid a percentage of the cover price.

http://www.baen.com/FAQS.htm#Manuscript%20Submission%20Guidelines

[edit]
As it says in the link, setting up for printing is expensive, actually doing the copies is less so, therefore, if you can print a million books straight off the unit costs can be considerably lower than printing just a few thousand. 15,000 copies seems to be a minimum. This can work in the favour of a better known author. They might produce a longer work but, because of huge copy runs, it ends up costing the same price, or less, to print.
[/edit]

  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #72 on: January 25, 2009, 20:11:50 PM
Sometimes you get ideas and sometimes they are adoptions of things that have been done elsewhere. What if, during the Dojo training scene in the Matrix, instead of using relatively fair play, Morpheus had totally cheated? Theoretically someone could control the physics directly and use it as an impossible to combat advantage...

It wasnt originally intended to be in a dojo, that was just unavoidable and is only there to make Slade jump to the obvious conclusion. Dojo+3D environment = Matrix training fight scene. Really though the Matrix is such a damn well made item that its very difficult to totally avoid any likeness. The womans initial costume is, of course, from Japanese manga.

Quote

“Obviously green as then. So we’ll start with the basics and the nursery section, that can be done here. Lie back, close your eyes and accept the incoming link.”

Slade was in the centre of a large dojo extremely similar to one he had seen in a movie. The difference being that instead of a large Afroamerican man there was a rather slimmer woman dressed in a white and green silk costume. The miniskirt was short enough to show the legs off to perfection and had almost his entire attention. He certainly had seen the body before, although that was in the Goromar system and being worn by an adult IKal clone. “Is this a fighting lesson?”

“You mean like?” Phelps considered, “if you wish. Try to attack me.”

Slade took up his stance and slid closer, then kicked. Had he been trying just a little less he might have stopped himself before his leg went right through the body and  landed beyond. The response was a fist to the gonads, he collapsed in agony. “I think that lesson one is not to overextend yourself.” Laguna walked away from him nonchalantly. “Well? Is that the best you can do?”

The pain had died away suddenly, he got up and walked towards her back, careful cat like steps. Finally he launched a blistering set of punches to her kidneys. Laguna just stood there, then, when he had stopped, she turned. “Person who live in glass house should not throw stones, person in 3D environment where other person has total control should beware of cheating.”

Her finger flick seemed, initially at least, to be innefective. He starred at her puzzled then an invisible wall hit him. His body flew, bounced off the far wall and traveled all the way back to her. As he arrived Phelps wafted her hand up wards, he hit the ceiling, then collapsed on the floor.

Slowly he struggled to sitting position, “so how am I supposed to win?” His voice sounded strange, as if his nose was broken. It certainly felt that way. “This is entirely unfair.”

“Well it would be, I have total control, there is no Unicorn in here to stop me doing whatever I want to the environment, me, or you. Which is why I can do this...”

Slade realised he was sitting on a bed of coals, his rear end toasting nicely. He got up and beat at the material his pants were made of before diving into the pool that had appeared. “That was pure nasty.” His eyes then noticed the circling fin near the other edge, slowly it turned, coming for him. His body responded oddly as he turned and reached for the side of the pool, his arm seemed short, soft and weak, he could grasp the edge but not pull himself out.”

“Ahh, come here,” Phelps picked him up, she seemed to be a giant, much bigger than he was and her clothing had changed into a plain white dress. “Whadda matter? Little baby got his nappy wet?”

Slade starred back at the grinning face with indignation. “You, you wouldn’t. Laguna!”

Laguna placed his body, back down, flat on the table then undid the fasteners. Slade was stuck, his arms were not strong enough to pull him anywhere, or prevent anything. The nappy was whipped away and landed in the laundry basket. Laguna ticked his feet, making odd baby noises, then got down to drying him.

He tried to struggle but it seemed useless, nor would the fingers hold onto the towel when it too departed to join the nappy in the wash. “Laguna, stop this now,” he complained, “you know it isn’t fair!”

“No, it isn’t.” She agreed, turning him onto his front she kissed his bum, both sides. “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum. Once there it was rubbed in, he could do nothing about that. Another nappy appeared and was fastened in place. “There you go,” she kissed his still visible cheeks, “all finished! Now that will be five hundred credits, please.”

“What!?!” He starred at her, “five hundred creds for being totally humiliated? Not a chance in hell!”

“I could do it again?” She offered innocently. “Really though it’s a big lesson, some people actually pay for others to do just that. I’ve been tipped a thousand credits for it on several occasions. No matter how odd, obscene, sick or damright dangerous it might be in the real world there are people who are willing to participate in the 3D version. There are groups who deal in pornography, rape, mass suicide, murder and anything else you can think of. Some are even willing to pay for it, if you can prove who you are and you are famous.”

“Mass suicide? You mean like lemmings?”

“Lemmings don’t actually do that,” Phelps corrected him in a disappointed tone. "It’s a myth that’s been going for hundreds of years. The jumping off a cliff is rather an under achievement for these people too, try jumping out of an aircraft, without a parachute. Umm, running into a burning maze style building and trying to reach the centre before dying. Diving into volcanoes, stuff like that.”


Anyone got an opinion on this?  :heehaw:

  • Offline zpyder

  • Posts: 6,946
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #73 on: January 25, 2009, 21:47:29 PM
Tis alright, but a couple of the words seem a bit wrong. Out of style? Is there a proper term for it where you read something and its like someone being out of character, but rather its the language used.
Quote
“Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum.


Just the word bum reads wrong, I dunno why, but it just stuck there? :shrug:




  • Offline Serious

  • Posts: 14,467
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #74 on: January 25, 2009, 22:00:35 PM
I know, it should technically read penis, testicles and bum but it does that sound right? Remember he *looks and feels* like a baby,  a mother would call it a bum. I also need to emphasise that hes embarrassed. :/

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.