Tekforums
Chat => General Discussion => Topic started by: zpyder on December 30, 2008, 14:15:07 PM
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Rembering some of you lot banging on about the shields in star trek, I have a question for you.
I am currently reading the "Forever War" saga. The premise is pretty much that a method of interstellar travel has been found that allows ships to travel at pretty much lightspeed, but the twist is that the ship travels instantly between "wormholes". As a result of relativity, this means that for the people travelling, they dont age while the rest of the universe does.
An example would be travelling 100 light years between points A and B. The ship enters point A in 2100 AD, and emerges at B at 2200 AD (100 light year distance), but for the ship it was instant between A and B, meaning the crew etc havent aged.
This results in loads of issues when Earth goes to war, as it takes hundreds of years for the first patrol to get back, and the vets are in essence antique.
SO...the question, how was this addressed in shows like Star Trek? Ive never really thought about it till now, but surely if the starships travelled faster than light, in essence theyd get to their destination before they set off. If they travel at near light speed, the above problems would occur when the crews returned to their base etc?
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AFAIK Star Trek just ignored (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Nth_Degree_%28episode%29) the issue of relativity completely.
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Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.
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Heh.
The other issue that I think has always been ignored is how whenever 2 ships meet in space, they are always orientated in the same way???
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Heh.
The other issue that I think has always been ignored is how whenever 2 ships meet in space, they are always orientated in the same way???
Theres a running joke in the latest Star Trek game (Legacy) where they removed the FMV cutscenes from the game to save money but kept voiceovers so you can understand the plot. The result is some wonderfully personified space-ships meeting face to face in space and having a chin-wag.
In all seriousness I just put it down to some polite form of the space equivilent of maritime code and dont let it get in my way of enjoying the shows. I suppose if you wanted to analyse it deep enough you could argue its something to do with bringing the most powerful weapons to bear on a potential threat (the only time they dont meet face to face is when they are allies, then they tend to fly alongside one another and arrive at random angles). Id suggest not analysing it too much and just chalking it up to a little bit of defamiliarisation; Trek ships meet face to face in the same way there are no squares in Battlestar Galactica (everything from doors to pieces of paper has the corners chopped off), it is because thats how it is.
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Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.
Except ships can still see each other and fire at each other when in warp. Really its a twisted mess. There is also the alternative that it doesnt create a subspace bubble but moves an area of space through the rest of it. The space moves faster than light, not the ship which is inside the space.
Star wars hasnt done any better either. Neither have most of the others. David Webers Honor Harrington series of books took reality as far as it could, ships travel through a subspace but once out they are limited by the speed of light. Really though there are very few fully convincing Sci-Fi series in this area.
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I dont think any sci fi Ive encountered, bar Forever War, has tackled the issue of relativity in space travel!
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zpyder... whats the name of the book youre reading... and is it any good ? it sounds like itll either be really really good.... or really really bad !
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but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.
If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
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zpyder... whats the name of the book youre reading... and is it any good ? it sounds like itll either be really really good.... or really really bad !
Its called "The forever war" and Ive got an omnibus edition which has that in, as well as its sequel and some other story which doesnt appear to have the main character in it but makes it a trilogy. Its kinda meant to be a sci-fi story about vietnam, but Im too young and know so little about Vietnam that I cant really relate the two, its a damned good yarn though.
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but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.
If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
I dont quite get what youre asking.
If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?
Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.
The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)
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but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.
If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
I dont quite get what youre asking.
If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?
Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.
The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)
I Dont buy the argument you cant go faster than the speed of light... I dont believe going faster = time travel bollocks either.
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but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.
If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
I dont quite get what youre asking.
If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?
Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.
The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)
I Dont buy the argument you cant go faster than the speed of light... I dont believe going faster = time travel bollocks either.
Quite simply nothing goes faster than light, but its not that simple so keep lets it as simple as possible and use rocket motors at a lower speed insead. Rockets use fuel, which is burned and goes out the back. Part of the energy supplied by goes into propelling the ejected fuel backwards and part into heating the exaust gasses and part into pushing the rocket forwards. Eventually the shp will run out of fuel, and you are accellerating the fuel on board as well as the ship, which isnt a good idea. So lets give it infinite fuel from a cornucopia. You would think that the rocket would accellerate forever, and it does, except the fact that the exhaust gasses have a limited speed, the closer the ship gets to this speed the less benefit it gets from burning fuel. Eventually the accelleration is so little as to be inconsequential and, if you were to keep burning fuel nearly forever, the ships speed would stabilise at a tiny fraction below the limit. The end result is that it can never exceed the maximum speed of the gasses going out of its exhaust.
OK, so switch the fuel for light, and the cormucopia is pushing it out the back directly, so you are getting the full benefit of lightspeed accelleration (whatever that is, lets just assume it works for the moment). You accellerate towards light but the result is you can never actually pass that speed. Its similar to a car running out of oomph at its top speed while you are driving across an infinite flat plain.
As Light is the fastest thing going we know of in a vaccum that is the speed limit. There are however certain ways of getting light to go faster or slower than itself in special mediums and under certain conditions. Light in atmosphere, water or through strong gravity travels slower than in an average space vaccum.
As to the person travelling at the speed of light, speed affects local conditions, especially time.
When we speak of time what we refer to is the speed of change, how fast something alters. A chemical changing state, the water or sand from one container pouring down into another, the tick of a clock or our bodily processes such as hartbeat, the speed of light are part of this. They only happen on a local basis and relative to the conditions of where they are. Trying to say that two distinctly different systems have to experience the same time isnt an option, even if they are only inches apart.
A person who is travelling faster experiences less time passing than a person travelling at a slower speed. Even at relatively low velocities this is measurable, the time clocks on Satnav satelites have to be corrected daily or you would end up driving to the wrong place. The person driving to London and back would also experience some time dilation, but its so small as to be inconsequential. So the person who drives to London and back has experienced more time than the one that has spent the time space travelling at light speed.
This folds back on your maximum speed too, as the ship gets closer to the speed of light it slows local time, so the cornucopia produces substantially less light than it did at a lower speed, which again reduces accelleration.
The effects of this are well documented, as are the expected effects of travelling close to the speed of light. As you approach it things outside speed up in relation to you. For a stationary person outside your ship you would slow down, but thats relativity. The next effect is that light from suns would gradually congregate together at the front and back of the ship into single points. Finally, if you do reach lightspeed, time stops for you, so you experience nothing. This is not a good idea as you cant control your ships direction or velocity, until you hit something you are totally helpless, although if you do hit something the chances are you are going to die instantly. Automatic systems on board your ship are governed by the ships internal time too, so they dont work. You might outlive everyone in the universe by doing this but I doubt it will make any difference as you wont experience anything.
BTW this isnt time travel but time dilation, slowing time down is a known fact. I will leave time travel to Steve F or someone else.
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Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.
Except ships can still see each other and fire at each other when in warp. Really its a twisted mess. There is also the alternative that it doesnt create a subspace bubble but moves an area of space through the rest of it. The space moves faster than light, not the ship which is inside the space.
Star wars hasnt done any better either. Neither have most of the others. David Webers Honor Harrington series of books took reality as far as it could, ships travel through a subspace but once out they are limited by the speed of light. Really though there are very few fully convincing Sci-Fi series in this area.
I couldnt care less to be honest. I know Sci-Fi shows overlook a lot of basic scientific principles but at the end of the day there is a lot more going on than space ships and laser battles if you take the time to watch and listen. If bending the rules of physics gets us to interesting and relevant storylines and shows we can enjoy then thats fine and dandy by me.
If you start to examine good science fiction too closely then youve completely and wholeheartedly missed the point.
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its all theory though.
your talking distance from looking at point a to point b which would be measured in light years, but if you could bend/fold space & take a tunnel/worm hole then the travel distance would become much shorter.
Take a sheet of paper for example, write A on the left side & B on the right side & say the distance in between in 100 light years. Fold that paper in half & punch through the paper from A to B - they are still 100 lightyears away
from eachother, but you would not travel for 200 light years to get there & back & time wouldnt accelerate either
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Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.
Except ships can still see each other and fire at each other when in warp. Really its a twisted mess. There is also the alternative that it doesnt create a subspace bubble but moves an area of space through the rest of it. The space moves faster than light, not the ship which is inside the space.
Star wars hasnt done any better either. Neither have most of the others. David Webers Honor Harrington series of books took reality as far as it could, ships travel through a subspace but once out they are limited by the speed of light. Really though there are very few fully convincing Sci-Fi series in this area.
I couldnt care less to be honest. I know Sci-Fi shows overlook a lot of basic scientific principles but at the end of the day there is a lot more going on than space ships and laser battles if you take the time to watch and listen. If bending the rules of physics gets us to interesting and relevant storylines and shows we can enjoy then thats fine and dandy by me.
If you start to examine good science fiction too closely then youve completely and wholeheartedly missed the point.
I normally watch them that way too, I watch Heroes and its not worth bothering to examine that for physics issues. Its not until after Ive watched a programme that I usually take belief off suspension and have a look at the issues. I noted those ones during my first viewing of TOS, and it isnt just Star Trek they affect.
Then again I do write my own books, and as far as possible they dont have these problems built in, although there is the possibility I have missed some.
In most of these cases its the writers not knowing physics. Hey, those Sci-Fi junkies dont know the difference so lets give it to them anyway, as long as it looks exciting they wont notice. And in most cases we dont.
I will go as far as saying Star Trek isnt good Sci-Fi any more, it became TV entertainment for the masses. Star Wars wasnt good Sci-Fi either though, just modified WW2 warfare with a bit of swords and sorcery thrown in.
And yes, there is usually a lot more going on, but quite often these areas are as broken as the physics.
Oh, a simple question to finish, if you dont examine Sci-Fi closely, how are you going to know the good from the bad?
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its all theory though.
your talking distance from looking at point a to point b which would be measured in light years, but if you could bend/fold space & take a tunnel/worm hole then the travel distance would become much shorter.
Take a sheet of paper for example, write A on the left side & B on the right side & say the distance in between in 100 light years. Fold that paper in half & punch through the paper from A to B - they are still 100 lightyears away
from eachother, but you would not travel for 200 light years to get there & back & time wouldnt accelerate either
Yes, but your speed doesnt actually exceed that of light, it used a short cut instead. There are quite a few options that are being offered to do this but as yet the all require extreme amounts of energy, exotic forms of matter or both.
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its all theory though.
your talking distance from looking at point a to point b which would be measured in light years, but if you could bend/fold space & take a tunnel/worm hole then the travel distance would become much shorter.
Take a sheet of paper for example, write A on the left side & B on the right side & say the distance in between in 100 light years. Fold that paper in half & punch through the paper from A to B - they are still 100 lightyears away
from eachother, but you would not travel for 200 light years to get there & back & time wouldnt accelerate either
Yes, but your speed doesnt actually exceed that of light, it used a short cut instead. There are quite a few options that are being offered to do this but as yet the all require extreme amounts of energy, exotic forms of matter or both.
which is what I thought this discussion was about? I cant see how using a wormhole would shorten travelling time for 1 person & everything else age?
what if for example 2x ships set off in opposite directions 5mins apart to different destinations.
ship 1 travels instantly to 500 lightyears away.. now that would mean everything at Point A was 500years older & everyone on ship 2 more than likely dead of old age, but ship B left 5mins afterwards somwhere 1000 lightyears away..
now theres 1500 light years difference between the 2x ships.
Where does that leave us?
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That is exactly the issue that Forever War addresses.
Squads are sent out to different destinations basically to take and hold a planet until relief arrives, or theyre wiped out. For starters an issue that is raised is technology differences. A squad would hit an enemy base with technology that is maybe 500 years out of date in comparison to the garrison forces, or if they are lucky, they may hit a garrison force that set out 600 years ago and so the technology is 100 years advanced.
Its really hard to describe, but its not too difficult to grasp when reading the book. The whole premise isnt so much on the war and fighting, but the issues surrounding displacement. Any soldiers surviving a campaign would return to earth a few months or a year older, whereas earth has progressed in decades or centuries depending on the distance. When squadmates are reassigned to different campaigns, it is essentially meaning they never see each other again as even if they both survive a campaign, depending on distances they may return to earth a century apart.
Not to ruin the plot of the book for anyone that wants to read it, but some of the veterans at the end of the war use a ship travelling at near lightspeed between 2 points so that they could wait without aging for comrades. Each time the ship would turn around the crew would age 1 month, whereas they had skipped 10 years, which I thought was quite cool.
With your example of ship a and b in different directions, if A goes 500 light years away, when they arrive, yes, other will have advanced 500 years, but its not instant, everyone will have carried on back at earth, so ship Bs crew would have set off perfectly happily 5 mins later.
For a very real example of this, just look at the sun (not directly, thatd be painful) it takes something like 7 minutes for the light to reach the earth. So technically if the sun stopped shining we would have up to 7 minutes before we knew about it.
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If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
Actually, no you dont, its just that the effect is insignificant at any speed attainable with current technology. You could drive to London and back Thrust SSC and it wont make a difference you can measure.
However, the phenomenon has been measured and verified against theory using atomic clocks and airliners, so weather or not you "buy" it, it has been proven to be so.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Relativ/airtim.html
Most Sci-Fi which involves FTL travel either flat out ignores the problem, or gets around it using some sort of technobable with Warp drives and/or wormholes.
At the end of the day though, Sci-Fi is all about postulating the existence of something we dont have and seeing what would happen. The something doesnt have to be possible or consistent with current theory for it to be good Sci-Fi. Just dont ask too many questions and enjoy the story, if you cant do that I suggest Sci-Fi is not the genre for you.
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If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?
Actually, no you dont, its just that the effect is insignificant at any speed attainable with current technology. You could drive to London and back Thrust SSC and it wont make a difference you can measure.
However, the phenomenon has been measured and verified against theory using atomic clocks and airliners, so weather or not you "buy" it, it has been proven to be so.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Relativ/airtim.html
Most Sci-Fi which involves FTL travel either flat out ignores the problem, or gets around it using some sort of technobable with Warp drives and/or wormholes.
At the end of the day though, Sci-Fi is all about postulating the existence of something we dont have and seeing what would happen. The something doesnt have to be possible or consistent with current theory for it to be good Sci-Fi. Just dont ask too many questions and enjoy the story, if you cant do that I suggest Sci-Fi is not the genre for you.
doesnt really prove anything does it? its just a way of measuring time.
If I went to Australia & arrived the day after tomorrow, I wouldnt suddenly be 2 days older & wouldnt be 2 days younger when I return.
I was born at Y & the time ive been alive is measued from that point.
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I dont like the premise of technology hitting a brick wall;
Bob lives in 1907 and decided to travel the circumference of the earth by horse and rafts.
Then in 1909 Jack decides to do the same, but he uses a new fangled car and a sailing boat.
Jill has been following their progress for years. In 1912 she buys good maps and arranges travel by plane and car.
A few months later they all reach the finish line because Jill, bless her heart, gave the other two a lift.
500yrs is a long time to go on earth without some significant advances that would make preceding technologies redundant.
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its all theory though.
your talking distance from looking at point a to point b which would be measured in light years, but if you could bend/fold space & take a tunnel/worm hole then the travel distance would become much shorter.
Take a sheet of paper for example, write A on the left side & B on the right side & say the distance in between in 100 light years. Fold that paper in half & punch through the paper from A to B - they are still 100 lightyears away
from eachother, but you would not travel for 200 light years to get there & back & time wouldnt accelerate either
Yes, but your speed doesnt actually exceed that of light, it used a short cut instead. There are quite a few options that are being offered to do this but as yet the all require extreme amounts of energy, exotic forms of matter or both.
which is what I thought this discussion was about? I cant see how using a wormhole would shorten travelling time for 1 person & everything else age?
what if for example 2x ships set off in opposite directions 5mins apart to different destinations.
ship 1 travels instantly to 500 lightyears away.. now that would mean everything at Point A was 500years older & everyone on ship 2 more than likely dead of old age, but ship B left 5mins afterwards somwhere 1000 lightyears away..
now theres 1500 light years difference between the 2x ships.
Where does that leave us?
OK, one person goes through the wormhole, they havent gone all that distance because they took the shortcut, so they dont get the effects that it would provide. They then wait there for the one who goes the full distance to arrive. They have spent most of their time relatively stationary so age at a normal rate.
The other person goes the entire journey at near light speed, that means they do end up getting to the destination later, but the time dilation effect on their age means they are younger than the person who went through the wormhole.
This doesnt mean that both have experienced the same amount of time, the second has experienced a lot less time due to time dilation.
doesnt really prove anything does it? its just a way of measuring time.
If I went to Australia & arrived the day after tomorrow, I wouldnt suddenly be 2 days older & wouldnt be 2 days younger when I return.
I was born at Y & the time ive been alive is measued from that point.
A clock is a way of measuring time, if you change the local conditions so that it ticks slower then it experiences less wear and thus effectively doesnt age as quickly. This applies to everything in a locality where the conditions apply, including humans. This has always been so, and always will. If you dive into a plane and fly to Australia and back but your identical twin remains here you would look the same, the effect would be minuscule, less than a thousanth of a second. But you would still be younger than him. The higher the speed and longer the distance the more the difference in ages. Go off for a hundred years at close on to the speed of light and you might be a year older, he on the other hand has aged a century.
He has the experience of that century though, while you only have the experiences of a single year. Dont confuse this with getting younger either, its not that effective. The best you can hope for is to stop yourself getting older.
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Star date.
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I dont like the premise of technology hitting a brick wall;
Bob lives in 1907 and decided to travel the circumference of the earth by horse and rafts.
Then in 1909 Jack decides to do the same, but he uses a new fangled car and a sailing boat.
Jill has been following their progress for years. In 1912 she buys good maps and arranges travel by plane and car.
A few months later they all reach the finish line because Jill, bless her heart, gave the other two a lift.
500yrs is a long time to go on earth without some significant advances that would make preceding technologies redundant.
Been done a few times. In one a group of astronauts leave Earth for the three Centauri suns. Going at sub-light speed, which, coincidentally, takes them exactly 500 years, which they mostly spend in suspended animation. When they get there they find that they have been overtaken by technology and the whole place is already occupied by people who have been living there for hundreds of years. The people have constructed a civilisation while waiting for the arrival and their society has changed considerably from the one the Astronauts left. Being incompatible with the new way of life their hosts have they then use a time travel get around to return to Earth just after they had departed.
Far Centaurus, written by A. E van Vogt back before 1960 and printed in a compilation of short stories called Destination: Universe! I still have a copy and its well worth reading for the ideas that are in there.
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Lets face it - were still basically no better than monkeys with machines that flash lights in our faces.
We will never see any of this. So just watch it on TV and enjoy it.
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Lets face it - were still basically no better than monkeys with machines that flash lights in our faces.
We will never see any of this. So just watch it on TV and enjoy it.
Maybe, but I think we are slowly getting closer.
Eventually a fully self supporting off world colony will be a possibility, just expanding the ISS enough would give that. People there will have to take precautions against the effects of zero G but we are enhancing those now. Having self supplied havens will help to avoid issues like a big disaster killing us off.
Beyond that we need are a form of cheap transport to space for people and long buckytubes for space escalators to transport materials. The second is just time and development, the first might be theoretically possible now. Even without those its just a case of how much its worth to do it and determination.
It may be that its impossible to travel faster than light, but we should be able to produce large enough ships to be self sustaining worlds in themselves. Those might take hundreds of generations to reach even the closest stars, but its an option.
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but we should be able to produce large enough ships to be self sustaining worlds in themselves. Those might take hundreds of generations to reach even the closest stars, but its an option.
like how we all got here in the first place ;o)
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Science Fiction, get it?! Its a FICTION
Star Trek - uses WARP drive. (That is a fiction) - They do not break the laws of relativety, they are ignored becuase WARP drive creates a warped area of space around the ship which allows the ship to be propelled through normal space at faster than relativistic velocity. Its the shap of the warp field and the energy needed to create it that controls the ships speed.
The only realistic part of the this is the energy level needed, and nothing short of Anti Matter engines can supply the power to travel faster than light...warp drive.
Battlestar Galactic, Star Wars, ask the viewers the suspend the laws of relativety instead of giving an fictional alternative they exist in a fictional universe where light speed is possible.
Farscape, Babylon 5, Andromeda, all exist in a Universe where a seperate (dimension, sub-space, slipstream) are accessable by some means through which travel is capable, thus allowing travel faster than light.
Stargate & StarTrek also use wormholes, these are points in space connected to other points in space (the theroy/science I dont get, but its seems popular) This allows for faster than light travel through the wormhole...again this is a Fiction.
I am happy to suspend believe and enjoy the story/message or action the writers are trying to create when I recognise a fiction. Instead I continue to hope and dream oneday some of these fictions could become a realitey.
Just like, the quantum coupleing, personal communicators (mobiles), non-invasive drug administration (compressed gas forces the drug into the skin - Hypospray), Better and faster computers....research continues into Bio electrical circuits and optical circuits, etc.
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Well, the original question wasnt accusing the sci-fi as being full of flaws.
It was what mechanisms, if any, were used to explain it. And Dogbert has finally answered it!
Some fiction, the authors create a back history expanding on things in the main work. Think Tolkien and his different languages. You can appreciate the fiction and take it for granted, but it doesnt mean you arent allowed to ask questions within the boundary of the work!
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The only realistic part of the this is the energy level needed, and nothing short of Anti Matter engines can supply the power to travel faster than light...warp drive.
I think that was proved problematic a few years ago, antimatter wouldnt supply enough power to push a ship as fast as the Enterprise is supposed to go with just the impulse engines going.
Science Fiction, get it?! Its a FICTION
The real surprise though is that a lot of science FICTION as you put it has become science REALITY and some more is science POSSIBILITY depending on how much money we are willing to expend getting there.
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I thought the existence of antimatter hadnt been proved yet? I thought it was just one of many theories trying to come up with an explanation for some observations in physics, and the LHC was/is an attempt at discovering some of the proposed particles/thingies?
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They use antimatter all the time, a PET scan is exposing your body to positrons, the antimatter form of electrons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron
Other antimatter particles have been created at many of the atom smashers around the globe, the problem is the amount of power it takes to create the stuff along with the issues of storing it safely. Very little antimatter exists at any particular moment in time.
The LHC is for testing several high energy physics predictions including attempting to detect the Higgs boson, the only particle predicted by the standard model that hasnt been observed yet. It might not actually exist but its intended to give other particles mass.
Then again the Tachyon hasnt been isolated either, a hypothetical creation that never goes at less than the speed of light. These arent forbidden by physics at present but havent been detected either. To have a chance of stopping one, if they exist, you would need at least 3.500 light years of lead...
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we need to worry more about eradicating religion than anything else - thats the cause of ALL our problems.
Can you imagine what would happen if we ever met another civilisation? The god botherers would try and convert them, and start conflict.
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we need to worry more about eradicating religion than anything else - thats the cause of ALL our problems.
Can you imagine what would happen if we ever met another civilisation? The god botherers would try and convert them, and start conflict.
Easy tiger. Youve just demonstrated why Ive always said the anti-religion brigade can be just as fanatical as some of the more evangelical loons that grace the various religions of the world. The blinding hypocrisy of doing exactly what some of them are guilty of is absolutely hilarious.
Whilst I have no love for the unholy Abrahamic trinity that have caused a lot of problems in the past (and are continuing to do so to some extent) I think a live and let live policy is the best thing to work towards.
Incidentally you should pick up pretty much any history book and thumb through it when you have the time. Youll find an example somewhere of someone who tried to suppress or eradicate one or more religions and pushed them underground forcing the religion to push back harder and causing even more conflict.
"Spirituality" of some form is and always will be part of the human condition.
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I strongly suggest the book I mentioned in the starting post. The second story in the omnibus addresses, somewhat abruptly, the issue of god at the end of it. Itll be like marmite, youll either sit there and think "wtf" or chuckle a little and start on book 3 hehe.
Im sure if anyone is intrigued they can either google the plot or PM me for details...
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we need to worry more about eradicating religion than anything else - thats the cause of ALL our problems.
Can you imagine what would happen if we ever met another civilisation? The god botherers would try and convert them, and start conflict.
Easy tiger. Youve just demonstrated why Ive always said the anti-religion brigade can be just as fanatical as some of the more evangelical loons that grace the various religions of the world. The blinding hypocrisy of doing exactly what some of them are guilty of is absolutely hilarious.
Im always amazed at the speed atheists adopt and use religious stances. Burn the heretics, burn the heretics! is swiftly translated to burn the believers, burn the believers! I dont want to be converted to atheism, thanks, I certainly dont try and convert you lot, thats your choice. Conflict between religious groups that make claims that they need to eradicate something need to damn well sit down and think the whole area again. Atheists and scientists are included.
Im also sure that any alien will undoubtedly have their own ideas on theology and religion too, they might come here with the idea of converting us. So what do we do then with the death rays pointing down? Obviously Mark would want to fry for his belief in there being no god.
Or they may just need to build another intergalactic highway.
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I strongly suggest the book I mentioned in the starting post. The second story in the omnibus addresses, somewhat abruptly, the issue of god at the end of it. Itll be like marmite, youll either sit there and think "wtf" or chuckle a little and start on book 3 hehe.
Im sure if anyone is intrigued they can either google the plot or PM me for details...
Im sure I skim read the book the thread is about while I was studying for my degree, however Ive just ordered a copy on Amazon market place on your recommendation. I really cant recall that much of it so it should be an enjoyable read.
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Well, the original question wasnt accusing the sci-fi as being full of flaws.
It was what mechanisms, if any, were used to explain it. And Dogbert has finally answered it!
Simple answer would have been none of them use the same mechanism for FTL that the Forever War does so none of them need to address the problem.
I use the exact opposite, to an outside observer my ships instantaneously pass through the wormhole, but the crew spend time inside as if they were crawling across at light speed. That means they have to spend a long time in suspended animation during transit.
I assume its this one?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peace-War-Omnibus-Forever-Gollancz/dp/0575079193/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231085994&sr=8-3
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The very same.
I thought my original question was referring to how different sci-fi things explain the instant travel between long distances, not how it works in Forever War?
How does you mechanism work, surely to the outside observer the ship would travel at lightspeed (which would seem pretty instant I admit)
It reminds me of a Stephen King short, called "The Jaunt". Basically it describes the history of the teleportation transportation that now is commonplace, its all set up pretty similar to an airport and airplane cabin, except for some reason every has to be put to sleep whilst they are transported. Its all in the form of a conservation between a family talking about how the early experiments with apples were fine, but mice, and then convicts, always came through dead, or insane. Finally they discovered so long as you were asleep, you were fine. So its commercialised and people are just knocked out before being transported with a pill.
Spoiler below.
In the end the kid in the family decides to rebel, spitting out the sleeping tablet while no one is looking. The father wakes up on the other side to an emergency as his son is carted off, with white hair, screaming and raving how its an eternity in there...
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The idea is quite simple, you can cross all that space at light speed, or, you can go through a short cut in space that you make yourself, this requires the borrowing of a huge amount of energy to create a quantum effect and repaying the loan as close to instantly as possible in order to make it work. Not repaying it has fatal consequences as the interest rate is rather steep. (No I didnt work every little fact out, I had to use might be possible, or at least not disproveable yet.)
Once you are inside the wormhole your ship still needs to cover the same distance, and at the same maximum speed of light. The difference being that you are now isolated from the time in the rest of the universe. Effectively while the ship is travelling no time passes outside of its bubble.
Then there is the problem of the mathematics needed, you need special people who can just guess at the right option and be right. Computers can do these calculations but they would take an incredible amount of time and by the time you got an answer the chances are the parameters would have changed. So the number of pilots available, as with the Dune universe, is severely limited. They dont use spice or any similar chemical substance though, its a genetically modified gene combination that was created for another reason but is fortuitously just what they need for doing this.
Because of the way the physics works there is no way to stop a ship in transit, either for those outside or inside. There is also the fact that Gravity increases the amount of complexity, so you have to move your ship well away from a gravity well, such as a sun or planet. That means there is no warping in close to a target, bombarding it and then warping out again, fighting is, for all practical purposes, limited to sub light.
You might think that this would give no advantage, except it does. In war being able to transport troops and information practically instantly can mean that you outnumber the enemy locally and take on a fraction of their force with a much greater percentage of yours. The limits of pilot numbers means you can only move so many of your ships if you put a pilot in each one. That means most up to date warships are docked with carriers for long range transport, so a single pilot can shift a hundred cruisers. It makes them similar in function to the present fleet carriers and aircraft.
Maximum acceleration is also limited, there are gravity engines, which provide a maximum of about 20G and microwave ones that can add about another nine to that, this means that the people are almost guaranteed to know you are coming. There is also a zero percent energy harvesting option, so you can keep your ship powered up, but in order to use it there is a minimum speed you have to achieve before it becomes viable. Ive taken the probably reasonable decision that gravity hills and wells cancel each other out over longer distances, so the ship will not suck people off a planet or cause tidal waves if far enough away.
Weapons are basic high energy beam weapons for guns and nuclear missiles. At the present point in the history of the books energy weapons can destroy a missile attack from a similar number of enemy ships but if you get close enough they have to choose to target incoming missiles or enemy ships. There are no shields or such, there is a basic magnetic field generator and thats it, any nukes that explodes close enough and your crew die due to the radiation.
There are robots but their use is limited and they are effectively lobotomised, just in case they try and take over the world. Troops wear powered armour exoskeletons with plasma based rifles. Firing a plasma rifle of this kind without the powered armour can easily break your arm or shoulder.
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Incidentally Zpyder, I dont know if youre aware (or care) but Ridley Scott is looking to make a film version of The Forever War as the rights only recently became available.
Ridley Scott coming back to Sci-Fi can only be a good thing in my opinion, fingers crossed he gets a good script writer on board.
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Ive ordered a copy of the omnibus along with one of Old Twentieth. So hopefully Im in for some interesting reading*
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*if not Ill bribe the dolphins a load of fish to find you next time you go diving and they will sort you out... :twisted:
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Hahaha. Hopefully you will enjoy it. I think in the scheme of things it tackles a pretty difficult issue in such a way as to make it readable by many people, Im even tempted to suggest my dad read it, and he is, tbh, an idiot.
Your expanded space travel idea reminded me of the futurama ships drive, it doesnt move, it moves the universe around it. If no time passes outside the bubble, what happens if you get 2 ships in different bubbles? :D Or what happens if they cross paths... mwhaha
A forever war film would be pretty cool, though I think itll end up diverging quite a lot from the book. I mean, the combat aspects are pretty sparse, most of the book is taken up with describing earth in the different time periods, the feelings of isolation the soldier experiences, and the camadarie (sp?) between the soldiers that pretty much know that they are either going to die, or never see the world they knew again...
Incidentally, I am basically randomly choosing books from the SF Masterworks collection, which Forever War is part of. I decided in the end to sacrifice the cover and numbering, and get this non-collection omnibus as it was better value. However, I thoroughly recommend the collection to anyone that was like me, who enjoys Sci-fi but never knows what to read. Since starting, Ive read half a dozen books in the collection, and been introduced to Philip K. Dick (It seems a large chunk of the collection is his work), and read things like I Am legend, Ringworld and Roadside Picnic, all things that have since made their way into popular culture in one way or another :D
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I did think of that one, the ship effectively creates its own mini universe until it rejoins normal space, so they would just go past each other, for each the other ship effectively does not exist.
At the moment one of the characters is in a Shrodingers cat situation. On board an alien space station hes faced with four enemy cyborgs who are termed Mechs. They are probably going to kill him anyway and he doesnt have a gun anyway. What he does have is an EMP bomb, which might be more fatal to him as the cyborgs.
The issue is he either lets them kill him or he takes his chances and sets off the bomb, he has a complex electronic computer system inside the back of his skull and this isnt exactly EMP proof, so there is the probability of him frying his own brain - permanently. At that point he would also break any contact with his own people outside the station. The question is did he survive? He doesnt know cause hes at best comatose. Those outside are in a similar predicament.
And what about the Mechs, are they still active?
Needless to say the crew of the ship he arrived on are taking bets on his survival chances... :yarr: :wtf: You dont really need enemies with colleagues like these.
Oh, I dont know either as this wasnt supposed to happen.
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Heh, so youre writing it as you go along?
Your (plot) style sounds similar to Larry Niven. Ive only read Ringworld, but I found the mix of science and Semi-Pratchett-esque humour quite refreshing. Might have to pick a copy up once its done...
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For some books I started out with no plan at all, the problem is you can very effectively end up going nowhere. The minimum I prefer is a start point, a least a vague ending point and a reason for wanting to get there. From that you can add in various events that might happen along the way.
So I came up with a series of rough events that were supposed to happen as a sort of plan, a bit like stations on a railway line. Then it went off on a different track. Ive ditched the rest of the events I was going to use and have created some new ones, so ATM I know roughly where its going again. If you think about the many universes theories, this is exactly the same principle.
My problem was simply that one of the vital facts changed and the follow on scenes depended on it. To be honest this happens very often, sometimes it wipes out stuff you have already written as impossible or irrelevant.
To be specific the encounter with the Mechs was supposed to happen on a planets surface. That wasnt exactly easy as it turned out the planet was effectively dead and didnt have an atmosphere, this gave the aliens originally living there a reason to move home. So the encounter moved forward in time and onto a space station. Once that had happened all the other events after it either vanished or changed dramatically as they affected each other. This also meant my end point vanished, so I needed a new one.
As to Niven and pratchett. One of them is his best friend and it isnt Corvack...
EXI selected the external laser transmitter and pointed it at Simone’s returning combat shuttle. ‘Hi, I just thought I might message you to see how you are doing?’
‘I’m doing fine, journey time back is right on the button and no dark clouds in the sky here. How is it elsewhere?’
‘Well, I’ve just been handed a tiny cloud, although it might spoil your day a little.’ EXI paused for effect. ‘You see LIA has just told me Discovery Unlimited is doing an Aston, so they are abandoning ship. I need to keep close to Slade, just in case he needs help so someone else will have to take over and pick up LIA and her crew. I’m sending Defiance to meet you, try to take good care of it and pick us up when you are finished doing the rescue mission.’
‘Pesky little cloud. You sure we can’t just report that Ambassador Slade died while carrying out his duties?’
‘Well I didn’t jump into bed and bonk him senseless several times, so I thought you might not go for that option. I also think that it might end up a bit messy and, if he got out of the situation by himself you would never hear the end of it from him. Then again he might bang his head, or something, and remember everything. We need to keep him from doing that at all costs.’
‘Bummer, you’re right though. Him remembering or finding out what really happened would also really spoil our day. My having a good time with him has nothing to do with this, you are closer and transmitting the news to me might inform others of what is happening.’
‘I intend for that not to happen if at all possible. If it does I can take care of it.’
‘You taking a gun with you?’
I’m taking my battlesuit,’ EXI responded, ‘I don’t need a gun with one of those, although I will have some plasma rifles on board the shuttle too, if I need one.’
‘And if George Wallis asks about it?’
EXI shrugged mentally, ‘I don’t see a problem, you will be doing the reports. All I have to do is make myself scarce when he’s asking questions. I can get another IKal to stand in for me if necessary and she can claim no knowledge of what happened beyond what she knows, or rather, I tell her.’
‘Are you ready to go in and find if our Schrodinger’s cat is alive or dead?’ Corvack asked with concern. ‘It’s just that I’ve put twenty credits on with Simone on him surviving and you getting in there fast improves those odds.’
‘Seems everyone else has got there too,’ EXI disclosed. ‘my mail inbox has a load of offers for me to hurry up or take my time. Bah, she wouldn’t take my bet on it.’
‘It’s a bit much you betting,’ Corvack came back. ‘You are the one going in to rescue him.’
‘Exactly, if I could get a big enough offer it might influence my actions. I guess I’m just going to have to go and see what I can do.’
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Im curious what your books are called, and whether I might have seen them on a shelf at some point?
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Most dont have any names at the moment, its one of the things I tend to be rather poor at, along with writing synopsis.
Still waiting for Baen to get back to me on the first book I sent them. It takes firkin ages to get anything published or even to find out if they are interested :disappointed:
So you wont have any of read them but if Im lucky I might just manage to get one published this decade...
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As with most of my books, I started off and for the first 75,000 words I worried that I didnt have enough material to finish it.
Now as I get close to that point Im worrying there is too much material I need to get in :/
Seems that the storyline is staying on track though.
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Sounds like any written work. Is there any written document out there which isnt a stress to make sure its too short or long...?
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Yes, its called a letter.
Then again, writing reports and such like I was never really constrained by size. If there was a length specified then it somehow ended up the right length. If no length limit was mentioned, and this is normally the case in business, then it ended up whatever length it finished at. Quite often little more than the conclusion would be read. I probably could have put in blank sheets for the rest on quite a few. On one, just to test, I put a load of the worst gobbledegook I could come up with, nobody noticed.
Writing depends a lot on inspiration, if you dont have any then you can end up stalled, or becalmed - AKA writers block. Its quite possible not to be able to write for months, for no reason whatsoever, then it comes back again.
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maybe its them diazepams youre on
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maybe its them diazepams youre on
I wish, those things have odd effects on me, I end up so happy I just dont care about anything else. Take enough and I would starve to death. Get a similar effect from a furniture varnish called button polish, one good whiff of that and its woohoo!!! :heehaw: :w00t: 8-) :bounce: :nana:
I found out working at a furniture place doing a temp job as a favour to the manager. Three days there and I was banned permanently from going near the stuff :cry:
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I planned a little fact at the beginning of the book as to who the lemming with the fried brains father was, except I didnt realise how big an issue that might be.
Think of a press announcement that a 30th century man is the son of the equivalent of a highly genetically modified Prince Phillip, whos been sterilised, and a 90 year old catholic Ambassador, who also likes to bed men a lot.
Add that the Federation laws also state that any offspring of such a relationship have to be destroyed, even though they shouldnt be able to happen. And they are fighting the mother of all battles, against a foe who might actually win. If that isnt going to end with chaos then I dont know what would.
I dont think I can change it now either. Still, not an issue for this book, I can sort something out in the follow on, if he survives this one. Hes a good character though, interesting to work with.
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Sounds confusing!
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I prefer the term complex. Once you start reading then its straight enough. Even though I know who his father is it isnt mentioned directly at all. What gives it away are the genes.
The thing is once you have complex things can get out of hand, you think what if this happened? What about that? Where would an issue like this lead? It can end up with a load of possible options, not all of which will be beneficial and some will end up causing disaster.
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I guess its a bit like game walkthroughs and guides, if you have started playing a game, and for some reason read the guide for the end level, it always sounds mental and way beyond possible, but it all progresses there with baby steps etc.
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Exactly, speaking of which the follow on is already above 4000 words. Ive not only got to kick the court case into touch, but there is a massive direct experience 3D system. Kike a game or second life, but youre actually in there, experiencing what your character does.
Very nice but a series of connected people have been found attached to their system, all having apparently committed suicide by stabbing themselves multiple times with stylus devices. Someone is using the 3D world web to kill.
That brings in who people are, and who they want to be. In a world where you can be anyone, and do almost anything, where do you stop? Fancy experiencing sex as a female, lesbian, straight, gay or sheep? :drool: Its your choice. Remember though that extremely fit sexpot in front of you might look like an under age schoolgirl, but its far more likely to really be an 80 year old gay bloke. The system will have age limits and levels, so kids cant while adults can. How about being murdered? Repeatedly if thats your cup of tea. Some people like being tortured, others like hurting or dominating people. In the near bottomless pit of depravity that some peoples minds can manage what are the limits?
I *really* dont know if Im ready for that option. I would have to pull out the stops and examine everything :shock: :0hnoes: :tinhat: :shrug:
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88K words, it looks like there wont be too many big changes with what is left.
Ive read the first twenty pages of the trilogy, seems he writes in scenes like I do. Its also a bit shaky on physics, claims if you leaned against frozen gas it would explode like a grenade, I really doubt it. Even in a suit with a heat exchanger giving out a full 37C on the back the solid would turn to gas and push you away. Liquid nitrogen can be held because it boils and lifts itself off your skin. So more like a rocket push at worst, although depending on the gravity you might end up in orbit or taking a really big, and fatal, jump. That issue was far too damn obvious for me, but then I tend to know too much about these issues as I cover them in my own books. Otherwise Im just seeing where hes going.
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Hey, as I said, its a good sci-fi book for people that dont tend to stray into the genre, or arent looking for hardcore science.
I was under the impression though that the heat exchangers gave off considerably more heat than body temp, I think he mentions somewhere that they can give nasty burns at the least? As to the frozen helium/hydrogen subliming to a gas not being an explosion, Id have said again, it could be. Compressed gas cylinders when theyre ruptured dont explode in a ball of flame but still do just as much damage, and he does mention about the low gravity being an issue on the planets too so its a feasible risk!
Stop trying to pick flaws in it and just read the damned thing! You might find the other 2 books a bit disappointing if youre determined to look into all the science, but book 3 covers something similar to your virtual reality thing :)
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Serious, Haldeman did study astronomy and physics at University before he was drafted so I have no doubt that the science in the book is sound, or at least as sound as he wants it to be for the narrative purposes of the novel.
Regarding this particular gripe you have Zpyder is correct. My grasp of physics is in no way scholarly but from my understanding the amount of heat given off by the heat exchangers is a lot more than body temperature and frozen helium and hydrogen can explode when temperature is applied as there is a tremendous amount of energy stored in frozen helium/hydrogen. In fact so much so that frozen helium/hydrogen mix would actually make a suitably energetic rocket fuel, especially if the hydrogen is suspended in the helium. I recall this exact thing being discussed some years ago now and the conclusion was that even a comparatively moderate application of temperature would result in an immediate explosive temperature increase.
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In order to freeze a gas you have to take almost all of the available energy out, its damn difficult and thats why its so cold! You do have E=MC2 still but the level of actual heat energy is minimal. Once you have achieved that you can shove energy back in, maybe from a nuclear reactor. At that point you would get massive expansion as solid changes to gas. Really though you want liquid gas rather than solid and gasses such as nitrogen have more mass for a given volume, thus making a potentially better alternative. The external shuttle tank on the Space shuttle contains liquid gas, it doesnt seem to explode unless you put a burning leak from a SRB onto it...
Lets accept that the gas ice does explode under the conditions, you could put a protective cover/grid over the fins, ice cant touch fins, that would prevent the issue. With geniuses like hes sending up that issue should be fixed, or at least minimalised, within days.
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Just a few pages later he gives them spacesuits with little chunks of plutonium as an emergency power source. This really isnt a good option and any nuclear scientist in the 50s would have been able to explain why.
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Actually all this is moot, As zpyder says, it wasnt written for someone like me but someone with a far more average background, they would have no higher science and certainly wouldnt question it. I was aware of this in the first few pages, I have to effectively lower my capabilities to the books level.
As for his education, even the best can get issues wrong, I know that Ive done the same, and Im not anywhere near the best. I also have extremely easy access to informational sources he didnt have. Science has also progressed, massively in some areas, hardly at all in others.
Thats why Im still reading.
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We really should know better than to disagree with you by now.
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As you said, zpyder is right, I try and pull anything like this to bits, it seems like an irresistible urge to look closely and break things. Im not quite up to torturing teddies though.
Then again how many scientists are the same? One avian expert was engrossed in a film until he heard a bird call, it was from an entirely different area to where the film was supposed to be and just that destroyed his focus. For some even the most seemingly minor issue is huge, most would say wrong bird, so what? I would!
Ive also admitted I might be wrong on the issue of the solid gas, although until someone actually tries it... zpyder, fancy an experiment? :twisted:
I think hes going on about frozen CO2, which does go directly from solid to liquid, most others dont unless there are very special conditions.
The important thing is hes pointing out the place is damn dangerous, and nobody could disagree with that assessment.
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The plutonium thing could be explained just by the fact that the tech has obviously advanced, whos to say they havent developed much better shielding for the radiation?
I agree, not protecting the heatsinks, to the point of falling on your back = break the suit, is silly, but the same could be said for the assault rifle issued to the GIs in vietnam, a muddy and wet environment, that jammed when they got dirty and wet.
Though you can take it as a sci-fi book on its own, it can also be looked into as a sci-fi book about vietnam, but as I wasnt alive back then there is not much I know about vietnam, though the gun bit does make sense.
Also, I presume you mean frozen CO2 going from solid to gas, and not liquid?
At the end of the day he gets the basis of combat on an alien planet right...a single suit rupture = almost certain death, and manages to set aside just how out of place the troops are whilst theyre expected to fight etc!
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Though you can take it as a sci-fi book on its own, it can also be looked into as a sci-fi book about vietnam, but as I wasnt alive back then there is not much I know about vietnam, though the gun bit does make sense.
Exactly. This is and what science fiction has always been about, sci-fi is really just a setting used for de-familiarisation. The very beginnings of sci-fi were to set a story in a place where contemporary issues can be discussed without arousing suspicion and this is what separates good science fiction written by authors who understand their genre and subject from the ten-a-penny sci-fi/fantasy crap that seems so prevalent these days.
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Also, I presume you mean frozen CO2 going from solid to gas, and not liquid?
Carbon dioxide, despite being a fairly common gas, has at least one incredibly strange property, it melts at -56.6°C but it boils at only -78.5 °C (yes, I checked the temps). So before it melts it boils off. It cannot, under normal circumstances, be a liquid. going the other way it goes through deposition, again no liquid state. When he says sublimation its turning from solid directly to gas, for oxygen that would require a huge instantaneous temperature rise, it melts at about 50 kelvin but boils at over 90.
And good point about its Vietnam, cause what hes going on about during training is what was used there. Writer admits it too.
Sci-fi is, as ChrisH so rightly points out, is often used to look at current issues without having to examine them within your own time frame. Often these issues produce such fervour that it is impossible to discuss them directly. Star Trek TOS handled issues like race relations and politics which were extremely difficult topics to examine calmly in the 60s. If its locked away safely in sci-fi you might not need to scream.
I keep hitting similar items, even though Im not intending to. I think its unavoidable. Mostly though its asking the question, what if?
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There on a planet, right on top of a huge building that detects large outputs of energy and absorbs it. The thing nearly killed them during re-entry because it was absorbing energy from a nearby energy source (the heat shield) and it simply sucked heat energy from their bodies. It did the same when one of them fired a plasma rifle. Insulation isnt any help.
I then wrote that they need a laser communications transmitter. They dont have one, but they do have a replicator.
I had written this before I realised what would obviously happen. :banghead:
I think this is all quite dodgy anyway.
Corvack waited a few seconds before returning to the shuttle and entering. He closed the door, turned on the gas taps again, thefuel cell started again and began to heat the place up. He then pulugged EXI’s suit directly into the power, it’s internal heating would hopefully do the rest. The display indicated she she was still breathing and had a hartbeat. Finally he looked around and asked, ‘is everyone else OK?’
The Doctor waved from inside his battlesuit, ‘I’m fine, if frozen.’
“Just a bit cold,” Slade answered through his microphone, “although the rep stays off while EXI is in here from now on. I would like to be moved out too before someone tries the thing again. I don’t think she realised the power level required to make a communications laser would attract the attention of the absorption field.”
‘It damn nearly screwed us all again,’ Corvack complained, ‘and her laser looks more like a genetically deformed monster banana from a party cracker. Plug it in and...’
‘A very effective micro firework,’ Bakks considered, I doubt if we need the plasma rifles so we can use the laser aiming devices from those to rig something up?’
‘It’s a bit far but worth a try. Looks like Miss suicide is waking up again.’
‘Who put the heat outside?’
‘You did! Nearly killed the doc too, and Slade. I think we have a pair of insane lemmings on board, breed you and I’ve no idea what we might get.’ Corvack did a Frankenstein’s monster walk up the isle. ‘Doctor, send up the kites, we need more power, more power!’
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Just a thought but, we might be better off in the search for new worlds if Mars was the second planet and Venus the fourth.
Mars has a relatively thin atmosphere, so it would be better off closer in. Although then it might have lost the water it has.
Venus has a lot of insulator gas, CO2, etc. Moving it out would cool it off. Again though, put plant life, such as algae, on it and you might end up with snowball earth.
Anyone knows someone who actually handles this kind of planet physics?
Ive now nearly finished the first draft of the book above. Ive started the other one, but I dont know. Ive also got three other ideas. It seems these are like buses, except rather than waiting an hour you wait six months... :(
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Ive just about finished, the book is 95773 words, which means it will easily go above 100K when I edit through. What I thought was going to be a big battle ended up taking 354 words though. More a slaughter than a battle, one side was ambushed - in space? :/
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Is 100k the limit for a book? I know there are limits for classification purposes for novels and novellas etc.
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Depends on the publisher, 80-120,000 used to be the sweet spot but many have now stretched it up an extra 10K words. Some now regard 100K as a sort of minimum, but they will look at shorter works, they can often be waffled up quite a bit. There isnt really a maximum, some fantasy books are getting towards 300K words. The problem is each page costs to edit and print - larger books are seen by many as better value, but it also means larger prices or less profit. What can happen is a book that is too long is chopped in half, or even three (LotR, the most widely known example, started as a huge single volume and was split into a trilogy).
Then again writers dont necessarily get more for the extra words, they are usually paid a percentage of the cover price.
http://www.baen.com/FAQS.htm#Manuscript%20Submission%20Guidelines
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As it says in the link, setting up for printing is expensive, actually doing the copies is less so, therefore, if you can print a million books straight off the unit costs can be considerably lower than printing just a few thousand. 15,000 copies seems to be a minimum. This can work in the favour of a better known author. They might produce a longer work but, because of huge copy runs, it ends up costing the same price, or less, to print.
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Sometimes you get ideas and sometimes they are adoptions of things that have been done elsewhere. What if, during the Dojo training scene in the Matrix, instead of using relatively fair play, Morpheus had totally cheated? Theoretically someone could control the physics directly and use it as an impossible to combat advantage...
It wasnt originally intended to be in a dojo, that was just unavoidable and is only there to make Slade jump to the obvious conclusion. Dojo+3D environment = Matrix training fight scene. Really though the Matrix is such a damn well made item that its very difficult to totally avoid any likeness. The womans initial costume is, of course, from Japanese manga.
“Obviously green as then. So we’ll start with the basics and the nursery section, that can be done here. Lie back, close your eyes and accept the incoming link.”
Slade was in the centre of a large dojo extremely similar to one he had seen in a movie. The difference being that instead of a large Afroamerican man there was a rather slimmer woman dressed in a white and green silk costume. The miniskirt was short enough to show the legs off to perfection and had almost his entire attention. He certainly had seen the body before, although that was in the Goromar system and being worn by an adult IKal clone. “Is this a fighting lesson?”
“You mean like?” Phelps considered, “if you wish. Try to attack me.”
Slade took up his stance and slid closer, then kicked. Had he been trying just a little less he might have stopped himself before his leg went right through the body and landed beyond. The response was a fist to the gonads, he collapsed in agony. “I think that lesson one is not to overextend yourself.” Laguna walked away from him nonchalantly. “Well? Is that the best you can do?”
The pain had died away suddenly, he got up and walked towards her back, careful cat like steps. Finally he launched a blistering set of punches to her kidneys. Laguna just stood there, then, when he had stopped, she turned. “Person who live in glass house should not throw stones, person in 3D environment where other person has total control should beware of cheating.”
Her finger flick seemed, initially at least, to be innefective. He starred at her puzzled then an invisible wall hit him. His body flew, bounced off the far wall and traveled all the way back to her. As he arrived Phelps wafted her hand up wards, he hit the ceiling, then collapsed on the floor.
Slowly he struggled to sitting position, “so how am I supposed to win?” His voice sounded strange, as if his nose was broken. It certainly felt that way. “This is entirely unfair.”
“Well it would be, I have total control, there is no Unicorn in here to stop me doing whatever I want to the environment, me, or you. Which is why I can do this...”
Slade realised he was sitting on a bed of coals, his rear end toasting nicely. He got up and beat at the material his pants were made of before diving into the pool that had appeared. “That was pure nasty.” His eyes then noticed the circling fin near the other edge, slowly it turned, coming for him. His body responded oddly as he turned and reached for the side of the pool, his arm seemed short, soft and weak, he could grasp the edge but not pull himself out.”
“Ahh, come here,” Phelps picked him up, she seemed to be a giant, much bigger than he was and her clothing had changed into a plain white dress. “Whadda matter? Little baby got his nappy wet?”
Slade starred back at the grinning face with indignation. “You, you wouldn’t. Laguna!”
Laguna placed his body, back down, flat on the table then undid the fasteners. Slade was stuck, his arms were not strong enough to pull him anywhere, or prevent anything. The nappy was whipped away and landed in the laundry basket. Laguna ticked his feet, making odd baby noises, then got down to drying him.
He tried to struggle but it seemed useless, nor would the fingers hold onto the towel when it too departed to join the nappy in the wash. “Laguna, stop this now,” he complained, “you know it isn’t fair!”
“No, it isn’t.” She agreed, turning him onto his front she kissed his bum, both sides. “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum. Once there it was rubbed in, he could do nothing about that. Another nappy appeared and was fastened in place. “There you go,” she kissed his still visible cheeks, “all finished! Now that will be five hundred credits, please.”
“What!?!” He starred at her, “five hundred creds for being totally humiliated? Not a chance in hell!”
“I could do it again?” She offered innocently. “Really though it’s a big lesson, some people actually pay for others to do just that. I’ve been tipped a thousand credits for it on several occasions. No matter how odd, obscene, sick or damright dangerous it might be in the real world there are people who are willing to participate in the 3D version. There are groups who deal in pornography, rape, mass suicide, murder and anything else you can think of. Some are even willing to pay for it, if you can prove who you are and you are famous.”
“Mass suicide? You mean like lemmings?”
“Lemmings don’t actually do that,” Phelps corrected him in a disappointed tone. "It’s a myth that’s been going for hundreds of years. The jumping off a cliff is rather an under achievement for these people too, try jumping out of an aircraft, without a parachute. Umm, running into a burning maze style building and trying to reach the centre before dying. Diving into volcanoes, stuff like that.”
Anyone got an opinion on this? :heehaw:
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Tis alright, but a couple of the words seem a bit wrong. Out of style? Is there a proper term for it where you read something and its like someone being out of character, but rather its the language used.
“Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum.
Just the word bum reads wrong, I dunno why, but it just stuck there? :shrug:
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I know, it should technically read penis, testicles and bum but it does that sound right? Remember he *looks and feels* like a baby, a mother would call it a bum. I also need to emphasise that hes embarrassed. :/
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From a very quick skim through:
Laguna just stood there, then, when he had stopped, she turned.
"just stood there" sounds far too colloquial.
Person who live in glass house should not throw stones, person in 3D environment where other person has total control should beware of cheating.”
Is the almost pidgin English-like speech for characterisation? If not Id change it to "people who live in glass houses" etc.
He starred at her puzzled then an invisible wall hit him
Typo, should be stared. It also sounds a bit disjointed, for example "he stared at her, puzzled, and suddenly an invisible wall slammed into him." Although Im not even sure what the hell is going on with invisible walls, again I assume its some sort of technology or something? Or are you just being descriptive, i.e something slammed into him with the force of a wall?
As he arrived Phelps wafted her hand up wards, he hit the ceiling, then collapsed on the floor.
Typo. Should be upwards. Also Im not sure about wafting someones hands? "As he arrived Phelps gestured upwards with her hands sending Slade crashing into the ceiling" reads better to me.
Slowly he struggled to sitting position
Slowly he struggled to a sitting position.
his rear end toasting nicely
Rear end sounds too colloquial. "Posterior" would be too fussy. Id try "behind". You could even get away with backside.
His eyes then noticed the circling fin near the other edge
It feels as though it is lacking a description, its jumping from fact to fact. Try "his eyes quickly noticed the unmistakable shape of a circling fin near the edge of the pool. Slowly it turned"
Laguna placed his body, back down, flat on the table then undid the fasteners.
"Flat on the table and (unclasped, released etc) the fasteners"
his arms were not strong enough to pull him anywhere, or prevent anything.
Lose the comma and add change "or prevent anything" to something like "he was powerless to prevent anything from happening"
nor would the fingers hold onto the towel
Whos fingers?
too departed to join the nappy in the wash.
Again too colloquial. Try "departed, landing alongside the nappy in the laundry basket"
she kissed his bum, both sides. “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum
I cant take this line seriously.
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I know, it should technically read penis, testicles and bum but it does that sound right? Remember he *looks and feels* like a baby, a mother would call it a bum. I also need to emphasise that hes embarrassed. :/
I wasnt saying you should write the technical term, just that bum doesnt sound right. Neither does backside, and ass makes you sound american. Its a toughy.
I didnt get the impression hed think of his ass as a bum tbh, and I got the impression it was the author/narrator describing the scene, and not him, so it should stay with the rest of the theme?
But hey, this is what proof readers at the publishers are for, right?
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Needless to say I hadnt spellchecked it properly before posting, its just as written, but thanks for pointing out the typos.
Person: shes using it to emphasise singularity, in this case him. Its also used in Confucius style quotes, whether really Chinese or not.
Invisible wall:hes in a 3D computer environment, which should be obvious, shes in control. Action therefore need not have any balance with effect. Ergo she hits him with an invisible wall. She doesnt really have to move at all.
Rear end changed to backside, ass or similar didnt fit.
Nappy fasteners are now tape, so unstuck the tape fasteners.
Its jumping from fact to fact on purpose with the fin, its her going faster than he can take things in properly. Youre right that might be a difficult point to balance though.
Fingers, they arent his, they are what shes lumped him with, OK, not saying his is fuzzy, corrected to nor would the fingers he had hold onto the towel.
I cant take this line seriously.
Never watched a mother change a babys nappy? Yes, this really DOES happen. I know - it happened to me. You probably just dont remember, ask your mum. Really its included to embarrass the character as well as being factual.
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Never watched a mother change a babys nappy? Yes, this really DOES happen. I know - it happened to me. You probably just dont remember, ask your mum. Really its included to embarrass the character as well as being factual.
I cant take it seriously due to use of both "bum" and "groin area", neither of which sit right. -)
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For me, bum will do, at least until it gets edited, the only real alternative Ive came up with is bottom. I chose bum because its what an average mum might normally use. Unfortunately, while I know groin area sounds wrong, no other acceptable option comes to mind easily. Loins, what an American might use, is even more colloquial than Groin :(
What I am trying is depict in narration a nappy advert rather than anything else. Thats difficult to get right. As with feminine hygene or toilet paper adverts there are some things that will not be mentioned. You wouldnt see an andrex advert with it really cleans the sh*t off your arse well in.
Its not meant to be entirely serious, there is a bit of humour meant to be in there too.
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she kissed his bum, both sides. “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his groin area and bum
For me, bum will do, at least until it gets edited, the only real alternative Ive came up with is bottom. I chose bum because its what an average mum might normally use.
but since its written in the third person, what an average mum would say is not applicable, unless its being narrated by an average mom.
what about,
…she kissed both buttocks, “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his scrotum and bottom…
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It may be a third person but its as if you are you looking over someones shoulder. Its the same as using camera angles in a film to indicate who the view is from. I understand the issue of me not being a mum. I want to indicate a cosy mummy/baby relationship but from his perspective while remaining a third party.
Really the talc should be rash cream now but its artistic licence, tough.
Really he doesnt want to even consider the issue... How does this sound?
She kissed his rear, both sides. “Now for the powder.” Talc rained onto his nether regions
Ive also changed it from her turning him over to just lifting his legs.
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I think an important aspect is, target audience? Is the book written for the same kind of people that read Pratchett (everyone!), or is it more adult, where saying Scrotum and the likes is passable!
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Who has used scrotum in a fictional work recently? And its not only the books level but that of the individual. Ive seen books where some swear constantly and others not at all. It also depends on the individual scene, what the writer is trying for. Dangerous scenes often involve swearing, others might not have any. The problem is no matter what you put it wont work for some people.
I keep the sexual ones to a descriptive minimum, you should know whats going on but the action is glossed over. Like in a lot of other books, if they want to bonk, they do it outside the storyline as much as possible. I dont fancy picking up one of those dodgy sex awards :D
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Finished book 2 Starts off with what looks like a 40,000 light year trip and ends up with them doing something completely different...
What I was going to put would have been a spoiler...
The doppelgänger life form is far too much of a give away. Otherwise storyline is fairly believable.
Overall its a bit choppy in direction but a reasonable read. Leaving the galaxy item is a bit misleading, the plan is to go 20,000 light years up and then straight back down again, this is hardly describable as leaving.
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I got the impression they were shooting out perpendicular to the galaxies axis, and then returning.
When you say give-away, I am guessing you mean cop-out? I certainly didnt expect it until it made itself known!
It certainly is a marmite ending, love it or hate it. Book 3 takes your virtual reality idea on a slight twist :D
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The sudden change in direction was puzzling and a bit disappointing, I was expecting something different.
The shapechanger made it pretty obvious almost as soon as it appeared.
Book 3s remotely controlled suits are what we are heading for, trouble is it divorces the soldiers even more from their actions. Clearly portrayed in the reprisal attack for nuking ten of their machines. Doing such things makes you far less popular with the civilians who survive (did they support the rebels?) and alienate your own people at home. Vietnam again if you havent guessed but applies to most guerilla conflicts, French did it with disastrous effect in Algeria. Only reason the Isralis get away with it is Yankee Sam kissing US Jewish voters butt.
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Johnson ring...universe...tenth of a second old Page 449 Pah, LHC is designed to be far better than that.
One thing most of us agree on is the universe exists (people who deny that usually follow some other trade than science) Not any more.
Hes also building a huge particle accelerator in orbit around Jupiter and from Io. Astronomers would kick their butts and I cant think of a worse place, huge magnetic field, gravitational effects (Io is volcanic because of this). Really he should be doing it way out at Pluto, Extreme cold would be good for the superconducting magnets, could have sent his scientists too. They should suffer for their art, its good for the soul.
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Well, one thing that could be said for the sudden change in direction, is that it kept you on your feet hah. For such a critic to not expect it can only be a good thing :P
I didnt think the shapechanger made anything obvious, I didnt even suspect until it outright made itself known.
As to the collider around jupiter, you forget one vital point. The reason he chose that is that the nanoforges or whatever will be using it as a resource base. IE, when they turn it on, jupiter wont be there any more. Of course it does cause issues with other planets and orbits etc. But just take it at the level he wrote it for, and go on the size of the damned thing, and that as far as potential doomsday weapons go, its pretty good.
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Of course it does cause issues with other planets and orbits etc.
/Cue religious soothsayers predicting disaster.
They wouldnt be allowed to do it. James bond would be around and kill em all :P
Really though, theres a nice institution for them to go into...
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Hes a bit behind on latest military thinking too, hes still fighting Vietnam. Sheep, sheepdogs and psychopaths time, this isnt mine. American...
http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
Basic British addition, near enough-
You cant train psychopaths to be sheepdogs, or sheep, they will kill but they have real difficulty stopping. You cant train sheepdogs to be sheep or psychopaths, they are willing to kill, but only where necessary. Sheep wont normally kill, but you can train most sheep to be sheepdogs, that is what the British army does. The American one seems to be trying to follow suit on this but suffers from the Jebsus clones.
The British problem was after WW2, they found they had a bunch of psychopaths called the SAS. First thing they did was disband them, if they hadnt there was the distinct possibility they would have ended up in court as war criminals. They were reformed later but with rather different ideals.
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Just add this too http://www.killology.com/defeating_the_enemys_will.pdf
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Honestly Serious, Ive discussed various science fiction texts in lectures and seminars with groups of postgraduate English students and well published lecturers who arent anywhere near as pedantic or picky as you. I wonder if you actually get any enjoyment from anything, life must be a constant string of disappointments if you approach it as a hypercritic.
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You should see the lengthy discussion that branched off from this into the PM realm...
Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:peace and war
....
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Honestly Serious, Ive discussed various science fiction texts in lectures and seminars with groups of postgraduate English students and well published lecturers who arent anywhere near as pedantic or picky as you. I wonder if you actually get any enjoyment from anything, life must be a constant string of disappointments if you approach it as a hypercritic.
That is one strange thing. I enjoy books despite the fact they are flawed. Some people actually enjoy finding flaws but I have the problem I cant avoid finding them :shrug:. TBH hes really going out on a limb with the writing, giving a lot of detail that most wouldnt put into their books. It may be a novel, but there are other ways of enjoying them than purely as a story. The detail makes it interesting on a technological and scientific basis so I can almost treat it as a scientific paper too.
Would you make a remotely controlled robot that links the people inside them on a full memory basis? Or that the operators feel excessive pain when the robot is damaged?
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You would if you wanted to ensure the operators acted at their optimum and avoided unnecessary risks. IT may be a society where anything can be made automatically, but as stated in the book, the material resources required for some things are the new currency, the units still have a high economic value and so they want to protect that asset.
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In the first issue it spreads what one knows to them all, this isnt a good security principle, as is proven in the book. Capture one and suck them dry for information works both ways, these people are incredibly vulnerable.
With the second a single person getting their robot damaged will cause splash on everyone, which will make them more vulnerable. At best you want it regulated down with a maximum pain cap. Possibly even worse is empathic issues, one person experiencing overwhelming shock or feeling angry can result in a cascade to everyone freezing or becoming violent. Groups become violent in riots without the electronics, as depicted in the book.
What happens when the Space Invaders later drop in to take over the planet?