Author Topic: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable  (Read 1998 times)

  • Offline matt5cott

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 20:06:03 PM
Cheers Egg  :thumbup:
I write 'amusement' for chasethedevil.co.uk Follow me on twitter or I'll kill you @MilkmanHero

Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #16 on: October 06, 2017, 08:13:03 AM
problem we have now is there is no 3rd party.
UKIP are done now we leaving the EU
Lib Dems are a laughing stock. Democratic - yet they want a 2nd vote.

  • Offline Serious

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 12:14:10 PM
The Greek issue is a lot more complicated than you would think. A combination of borrowing, tax evasion, corruption and 'creative accounting'. Worse some EU countries are doing very nicely out of it, with reduced interest payments more than offsetting the loans. Reality is Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis

As to it being over, with the vote. If a government official says, well you voted for Brexit, your new tax level is double, and your pension is cancelled, well you voted for it! Would you just be grateful or have an unholy row? The referendum was the start, not the finish. We still don't know what is going to happen. Things change, something that looks really good one day might, a couple of years later, turn out to be a can of worms you don't want to open. Problem is they didn't install any emergency brake. Lord Kerr on why he wrote Article 50, "In Britain there was, among Eurosceptics, the theory that one was tied to one’s oar with no escape and rowing to the unknown destination of ever-closer union. That Eurosceptic theory was always nonsense because you don’t need a secession article to secede. If you stop paying your subscription, stop attending the meetings, people would notice that you’d left.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/article-50-design-dictators-not-uk-eu-european-lisbon-treaty-author-lord-kerr-a7655891.html
http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-does-not-need-to-trigger-article-50-to-leave-the-eu-2016-11

Which brings me back to what Egg said earlier about who believes politicians, seems a lot of people did. The very resentment came from propaganda spread by politicians and news agencies. This didn't just start when Cameron announced the referendum, it's been simmering away inside the Tory and Labour parties for decades. His hope was that a remain vote would shut the Brexiteers up and glue his party together again, that was never going to work. It's just nobody was stupid enough to bet the future of our country on a referendum because of outdated ideals going back to colonial Britain.

As Egg said a large part of the vote was because of resentment towards the Conservatives, not the EU. The EU are going to try to make as much of it as they can, regardless of us staying in or leaving. Cameron, rather than jumping off the side of HMS Great Britain, should have gone back to the EU and said, "look, this is the situation, what are you do to make it easier for me to have another one?"

Sovereignty, democracy and power, are things I have heard banded out far too often, you don't get any, I don't get any. All the power stays at the top unless they agree to dribble a little down, and it will never reach you. Mostly those at the top suck it up and it stays there, same with money.

  • Offline matt5cott

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 12:41:30 PM
Sovereignty, democracy and power, are things I have heard banded out far too often, you don't get any, I don't get any. All the power stays at the top unless they agree to dribble a little down, and it will never reach you. Mostly those at the top suck it up and it stays there, same with money.

Well said, trickle down anything, especially economics, is tripe.
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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #19 on: October 06, 2017, 16:51:37 PM
The Greek issue is a lot more complicated than you would think. A combination of borrowing, tax evasion, corruption and 'creative accounting'.
Portugal Italy Ireland & Spain are/was not far behind greece.
The Piggs countries.

As for corruption & creative accounting... People need to visit Eastern Europe.
Anything East of Germany & Italy should not have been allowed to join the EU in the numbers they did. It should have been staggered or a 2nd EU formed for them where certain things are not shared.
It flooded the market with cheap labour and has been a burden to the richer countries with a free healthcare system & to the Balkan States a luxerious welfare system.
Can Blame Blair for not putting measures in place, or you can blame the EU for rapid expansion.

  • Offline Serious

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #20 on: October 07, 2017, 23:19:28 PM
Reality is our net spending on the EU is £192 million a week, and a lot of that is for help getting countries like Poland up and running properly after generations of economic neglect. Even then some of that is sent back. If we want a deal with the EU then we have to accept certain things. The ECJ being involved in trade is one of them. Reasonable freedom of movement is another. Legislation exists to control movement, Tony Blair didn't put it into effect here and neither did any other government since.

Plus all the extra money Poland get from our benefit system. Its a well known to come over. signup. then go back home.  We dont owe 2nd world countries anything. How many factories & jobs have been lost because production has been moved from the UK for financial reasons?
Again, the talking about a deal. Nothing about a deal was mentioned when we was told we was having a referendum. We should leave. leave with nothing. Which is what was voted on & for. If the vote was to leave the EU, but to stay in the single market, keep migration allowable & all the other benefits of being in the EU - then what is the point of it all?

 We dont need to play fair. We will be much better once our government can state aid industries again.

Fairly simple fix, make it so that only dependants in the UK count towards benefits. I think this was being sought just before Brexit.

The Greek issue is a lot more complicated than you would think. A combination of borrowing, tax evasion, corruption and 'creative accounting'.
Portugal Italy Ireland & Spain are/was not far behind greece.
The Piggs countries.

As for corruption & creative accounting... People need to visit Eastern Europe.
Anything East of Germany & Italy should not have been allowed to join the EU in the numbers they did. It should have been staggered or a 2nd EU formed for them where certain things are not shared.
It flooded the market with cheap labour and has been a burden to the richer countries with a free healthcare system & to the Balkan States a luxerious welfare system.
Can Blame Blair for not putting measures in place, or you can blame the EU for rapid expansion.

Nice idea, the EU thought of it before you. There is legislation allowing the EU countries to limit entry from Poland and the 9 other countries. Tory Blair didn't put it into action for the UK, neither did Brown or any of the Tories that followed. It could have been used at any time. Don't think that the rest of the EU doesn't have problems, the #open borders' idea is proving to be a real issue and liable for renegotiation at some point. UK has sea between us and the rest of Europe.

Legally refugees should register in the first country they enter when exiting their own. if anyone arrives and tries to claim refugee status here we can legally deport them instantly as they didn't register as they should have. I am sure we can build nice camps for them to wait in while they decide not to stay. Note that a lot of supposed 'refugees are actually economic migrants, who don't count and can be expelled back to where they came from.

Oh and a lot of this comes from the British support of USA action in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.
Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 23:41:09 PM by Serious #187;

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 23:48:12 PM
Lets see if this link to facebook works...

https://www.facebook.com/scientistsforeu/videos/1163941073707900/

As you probably have ni idea who this is Dr Mike Galsworthy, Senior Research Associate in the Department of Applied Health Research (DAHR)

Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 08:28:12 AM


Fairly simple fix, make it so that only dependants in the UK count towards benefits. I think this was being sought just before Brexit.
Under EU law they was not allowed. That is what part of the Cameron tried to renegotiate.


Nice idea, the EU thought of it before you. There is legislation allowing the EU countries to limit entry from Poland and the 9 other countries. Tory Blair didn't put it into action for the UK, neither did Brown or any of the Tories that followed. It could have been used at any time. Don't think that the rest of the EU doesn't have problems, the #open borders' idea is proving to be a real issue and liable for renegotiation at some point. UK has sea between us and the rest of Europe.

Legally refugees should register in the first country they enter when exiting their own. if anyone arrives and tries to claim refugee status here we can legally deport them instantly as they didn't register as they should have. I am sure we can build nice camps for them to wait in while they decide not to stay. Note that a lot of supposed 'refugees are actually economic migrants, who don't count and can be expelled back to where they came from.

Oh and a lot of this comes from the British support of USA action in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.
Im not talking about limitations of movement. I said the number of countries should not be allowed. Its not just people movement, its the amount of money that is doled out for infastuture, subsidiaries, new buildings, etc. Just go look at the EU Motorway network to see how much road building has gone on to join up the EU.

As for regugees - EU dont see us as britain, france, germany, etc. - They see us as one nation & will disperse refugees to wherever they can put them or they want to go. It takes away the problem from the EU.
No problem with genuine refuegees - but its easy for someone to say they from anywhere that is not affected by war.

  • Offline Serious

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 09:39:06 AM
"Unlike France and Germany, which did not give migrants from the 10 countries which joined the EU in May 2004 full access to their labour market until 2011, the then-Labour government did not insist on any transitional controls."
"Under existing rules, citizens of other EU countries can be removed after six months if they have not found a job, have no realistic possibility of finding one, and require support from the welfare system."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41216679

We never put the rules we could use in place.  Cameron got a deal, just not quite the one he was after. Effectively the child benefits he wanted removed were instead linked to the country the child was living in, greatly reducing the expenditure but not eliminating it. As I said he could have went back after the referendum and asked for more.

The EU doesn't see us as one nation, It can't. The way the treaties are written they have to accept national sovereignty. There were plans before the referendum to make national sovereignty stronger. What the EU doesn't see is national borders, except a little with the UK. Some countries not in the EU have agreed to the freedom of movement to gain access to the market.

Edit: Just to point out when negotiating you should never just ask for what you want, you should always ask for at least twice what you want, plus some bits you know you aren't ever going to get, and then negotiate down.
Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 09:51:22 AM by Serious #187;

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 22:06:48 PM
Look what I found, just a few (about 688) myths created by British press and others aimed at the EU. I'm sure Egg will want to examine each one in detail...

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

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Re: Teresa May, forget Strong and Stable
Reply #25 on: October 11, 2017, 15:23:51 PM
I did a little more research. Some facts....

It seems the government could have begun negotiating and finalised a deal BEFORE triggering Article 50.
The EU were really eager for Britain to trigger A 50 as soon as possible.
Michel Barnier- "I’m not hearing any whistling, just the clock ticking,"

It very much looks like A50 is a trap, and the UK government put it's collective heads straight in. EU doesn't need a deal, it needs the UK to suffer and make Brexit look a failure as an example to other countries that are thinking of leaving.

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