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Chat => General Discussion => Topic started by: neXus on December 04, 2020, 02:49:21 AM

Title: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 04, 2020, 02:49:21 AM
Not sure how everyone feels on this but the road to end Petrol cars has really kicked off this year.


- Japan is look set to end all petrol car sales by 2030.
- The UK has already announced similar plans
- New Zealand has announced similar plans and all government vehicles have to be electric starting from basically now
- Australia is also making moves
- Certain states in the US are or are going to initiate similar plans 


- Electric cars are on the rise, there are more companies making them and there are more stations for them popping up nearly everywhere.
- Many companies are using some from of tech from the Tesla opened up patents to facilitate the rise.


What are your thoughts?


For me, I know a lot of petrol heads will be angry about it but I am all for this change to finally happen. I just wonder what the fuel companies and old school motor companies will do, they have been deliberately holding back technology in this area for years. Over the years I am sure you all have heard the stories, some fact, some rumour in regard to technologies developed by small teams or individuals who have had things destroyed, threats and so on. I think there was a UK doco on that matter some years ago which was good.

Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 04, 2020, 08:47:41 AM
I think banning production of new cars is sensible, as long as people can still enjoy what will be 'classic' cars still I don't have a problem, the numbers will be low and dwindling as electric car performance already destroys most cars and the only ones that will have longevity are real driving enthusiast cars with beautiful sounding V6/V8/V10 engines.

Having children changes your perspective on things. I no longer think it's acceptable for them to breathe in sh*te air constantly and that is first and foremost why I welcome the change. Not that I genuinely thought it was fine before but it's 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality. There are added benefits of reduced costs as well. I'm already driving round in a Prius so I'm halfway there, our next family car will be full electric one way or the other. One day I'll buy a nice V6/V8 weekend car perhaps.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: matt5cott on December 04, 2020, 09:31:19 AM
Governments etc will push for this but I have the same serious reservations I've always had, batteries even today are still not the clean saviours they're often touted as, yes it offsets what's coming out the back to a degree and yes you can power them with probably cleaner energy off the grid, it's the battery packs being stuffed with rare earth minerals and flown around the world to be assembled bit that raises my eyebrow.

We have a finance it / build em cheap /chuck em away culture, battery cars don't appear to have changed this, if people are replacing them as often as they change their pants it somewhat offsets any "gains" And there's the fact that cells don't last forever, if you've got to replace them at ~7 years the car becomes beyond economical repair in many cases. This is why I won't buy a hybrid as it's a ticking time bomb and I keep my cars long term.


2030 is probably do-able, but if by then the technology has already changed drastically and the issues above are resolved (note I've not even included range as the newer stuff already is pretty good) Then the market will have pushed this way naturally anyway, why does the government need to mandate this :dunno: ::) Sticking their oar in again ::) :lol:
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 04, 2020, 09:57:44 AM
I agree the govt didn't need to mandate it, I don't think it's even sticking their oar for any reason other than it's just a good piece to soundbite essentially; get the hippies on board :lol:

I don't think the battery issue with degradation is as bad as has been made out. My Prius is from 2005 and has done 120k, the battery is still reporting excellent health and seems good as new. They are also figuring out a way to both recycle them for home energy storage and move away from using rare earth metals in their production.

It's another early adoption thing where the tech will only improve with a market drive to do so. Tesla has spunked so much money into that its now getting traction, so whether you like Musk and the cars or not its irrefutable that he's moved us forward leaps and bounds.

Hydrogen is the other tech that will come into play too, Toyota are really pushing it as its really the only viable option for heavy industry.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 04, 2020, 17:30:33 PM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: XEntity on December 04, 2020, 19:16:31 PM
The 2030 ban was a ban on pure petrol and diesel cars, not hybrid, so for example the McLaren P1 would still be within the legislation *I think; didn't google much
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 05, 2020, 13:23:14 PM
The 2030 ban was a ban on pure petrol and diesel cars, not hybrid, so for example the McLaren P1 would still be within the legislation *I think; didn't google much

The ban is worded to allow sale of some hybrids in the UK, it does not specify which ones. You will still be allowed to drive a petrol or diesel after that point if capable and can afford the cost.

Only £4 billion has been allocated for the changeover by the government.That would be like taking a pee in an empty swimming pool and claiming it's full.

Then this is Boris the clown in charge, although for how long is debatable. I expect him to be ditched by the Tories early to mid next year when they will be trying to push any blame for covid and Brexit fails onto him.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 06, 2020, 23:48:55 PM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Electric car sales were over 50% of all new sales overall in Europe in the last two years.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 07, 2020, 08:33:01 AM
Here's a great video which puts some of this into perspective for the next decade, not just for classic cars (30 minute watch):

Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 07, 2020, 18:21:59 PM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Electric car sales were over 50% of all new sales overall in Europe in the last two years.

You absolutely sure of that? I mean the average seems to be a lot less than half. Even with all the hybrids you might barely get to 25%

"Registrations of electric cars in Europe jumped 57.4% in the first quarter of 2020, but still only accounted for 4.3% of total registrations."

https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 07, 2020, 22:56:45 PM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Electric car sales were over 50% of all new sales overall in Europe in the last two years.

You absolutely sure of that? I mean the average seems to be a lot less than half. Even with all the hybrids you might barely get to 25%

"Registrations of electric cars in Europe jumped 57.4% in the first quarter of 2020, but still only accounted for 4.3% of total registrations."

https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/ (https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/)


Sorry Yes, you are right - Registrations but it is 18% of sales.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 07, 2020, 22:58:16 PM
Here's a great video which puts some of this into perspective for the next decade, not just for classic cars (30 minute watch):

Classic cars and what are declared as classic cars will be fine I think. They may introduce some running restrictions due to emissions in like 50, 60, 70+ years and Fuel prices will keep going up and up as the use declines but you can still run them.
It will be more your 20 year old Ford that will likely be banned from roads
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 07, 2020, 23:42:07 PM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Electric car sales were over 50% of all new sales overall in Europe in the last two years.

You absolutely sure of that? I mean the average seems to be a lot less than half. Even with all the hybrids you might barely get to 25%

"Registrations of electric cars in Europe jumped 57.4% in the first quarter of 2020, but still only accounted for 4.3% of total registrations."

https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/ (https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/)


Sorry Yes, you are right - Registrations but it is 18% of sales.

accidentally putting a zero in is fine, I have done the same.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 08, 2020, 03:26:46 AM
It is still going to take time, not all people are going to find switching as easy as might be thought. Countries still need to ramp up electric supply and places where it can be sourced.

There needs to be a lot more battery production too. Easy for a country to say that this has to be done, far more difficult to actually do it.
Electric car sales were over 50% of all new sales overall in Europe in the last two years.

You absolutely sure of that? I mean the average seems to be a lot less than half. Even with all the hybrids you might barely get to 25%

"Registrations of electric cars in Europe jumped 57.4% in the first quarter of 2020, but still only accounted for 4.3% of total registrations."

https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/ (https://insideevs.com/news/457575/europe-plugin-car-sales-october-2020/)


Sorry Yes, you are right - Registrations but it is 18% of sales.

accidentally putting a zero in is fine, I have done the same.
I think it was more I read and miss-understood registrations vs sales.


In any case this will increase dramatically.

The pushback is and will be interesting. Car dealerships in the US for example are a kind of Mafia organisation that have more pull and say than they actually should and been making Tesla's life very difficult over there. They have even gone out their way to try and stop Tesla renting or buying plots of land for their super stations and charging port locations for all manner of reasons, even though most fail here they do it just to cause hassle.


Fuel companies I am sure in the background are talking or trying to work out what they do but I think have little to nothing to be able to counter the growing boom here.


The thing for me is battery tech still needs to improve. Power consumption of chips, software that optimises everything from how the battery is used to how it is charged are all things these days etching out battery perfomance but the tech itself is not keeping pace with other tech. Someone really needs to pump more and try more to improve it a lot and get all these things being developed into reality sooner than later.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 08, 2020, 06:24:35 AM
Classic cars and what are declared as classic cars will be fine I think. They may introduce some running restrictions due to emissions in like 50, 60, 70+ years and Fuel prices will keep going up and up as the use declines but you can still run them.
It will be more your 20 year old Ford that will likely be banned from roads

The inference is as long as cars are within the moving window of historical status they won't be affected at all. A London to LA flight produces more CO2 in that single trip than than a lot of classic cars produce in a whole year, so there is no need to go chasing after them. What was suggested in the video though is that they may not shift the window as far as 2000 because some early dirty diesels could creep into the fold then.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 08, 2020, 15:06:49 PM
In any case this will increase dramatically.

The pushback is and will be interesting. Car dealerships in the US for example are a kind of Mafia organisation that have more pull and say than they actually should and been making Tesla's life very difficult over there. They have even gone out their way to try and stop Tesla renting or buying plots of land for their super stations and charging port locations for all manner of reasons, even though most fail here they do it just to cause hassle.


Fuel companies I am sure in the background are talking or trying to work out what they do but I think have little to nothing to be able to counter the growing boom here.


The thing for me is battery tech still needs to improve. Power consumption of chips, software that optimises everything from how the battery is used to how it is charged are all things these days etching out battery perfomance but the tech itself is not keeping pace with other tech. Someone really needs to pump more and try more to improve it a lot and get all these things being developed into reality sooner than later.


Tesla cars require a big investment at the start, even if cheaper long term. You also have to add in that there are lots of other car companies out there, along with the petrol companies who to a large extent see Tesla and other electric cars as threatening their industry, so not just car dealerships that often have exclusive contracts in their area. They cannot expect them to all bend over backwards for Elon Musk. A lot of the issue is the number of charging stations and how long it takes to charge up.

Solar electricity in sunnier climates has dropped radically to the point that it's cheaper for countries in Arabia to use than oil or gas. Batteries are still being developed, but that is going at a frantic pace. Then there is the issue of lithium and cobalt shortages likely to start in the next couple of years. You also have supercapacitors, not as weight efficient but able to dump their entire charge in seconds and have a lifetime of many decades, they are already being put in some cars instead of batteries.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: M3ta7h3ad on December 08, 2020, 17:37:55 PM
Ask anyone who owns a tesla what life is like on a bank holiday weekend travelling to the south west of the country.

Every single tesla supercharger stall, occupied... everywhere.

Every single rapid charger at the service station, occupied... everywhere.

We've 9 years, to try and put in place a charging infrastructure that can support a mass migration to electric vehicles. Not only have we got to weigh up the massive environmental impact this has, but also being able to service such capability from the national grid as is.

Colour me a sceptic but I don't see that happening. We still struggle with loads on the grid from advertisement breaks on TV despite the mass uptake of on-demand video. We will almost certainly not be in a position where the national grid can cope with the load a mass move towards electric vehicles will bring.

Hinkley Point C has been under construction since 2008, and is intended to replace the load of 2 decommissioned reactors at the same location (1 decommissioned already, the other to come at some point) yet is not expected to be online until 2025.

If the UK Gov is serious about this, we need to be breaking ground on new power generation capability now.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 08, 2020, 18:06:28 PM
Chris Harris did an interview with some chap from the National Grid (who happens to be a petrol head) and he was pretty certain they will be fine and there is always plenty of plans in place to handle and spread the loads - especially with many people opting to charge over night.

https://www.topgear.com/videos/chris-harris/there-enough-juice-harris-talks-evs-national-grids-graeme-cooper
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on December 09, 2020, 00:02:13 AM
Classic cars and what are declared as classic cars will be fine I think. They may introduce some running restrictions due to emissions in like 50, 60, 70+ years and Fuel prices will keep going up and up as the use declines but you can still run them.
It will be more your 20 year old Ford that will likely be banned from roads

The inference is as long as cars are within the moving window of historical status they won't be affected at all. A London to LA flight produces more CO2 in that single trip than than a lot of classic cars produce in a whole year, so there is no need to go chasing after them. What was suggested in the video though is that they may not shift the window as far as 2000 because some early dirty diesels could creep into the fold then.
Well the whole Government blaming us for global warming when industry is the ultimate evil here is another story.
That is a massive annoyance for me with us all globally paying x tax or something in regard to the environment and while we are technically doing our part 90% of the problem is not from us norm's. Most of it is China and most of it is industrial and it is them that needs to sort it.


On that though big  :cheers:  to the UK though for all the renewable energy work because its up there these days, no one really talks about it but you keep seeing news stories of days where the whole country has managed just on the renewable energy alone.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on December 09, 2020, 17:51:24 PM
UK gov not responsible for green energy effort.

https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/unions-slam-appalling-uk-green-jobs-drop-after-wind-and-solar-subsidy-cuts/2-1-740032
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: matt5cott on December 10, 2020, 10:55:14 AM
Here's a great video which puts some of this into perspective for the next decade, not just for classic cars (30 minute watch):


Excellent vid, I'm looking at another car soon (not to replace mine) it was going to be petrol anyway, but that video gave 2 pirate thumbs up to this decision  :ptu:

Well the whole Government blaming us for global warming when industry is the ultimate evil here is another story.
That is a massive annoyance for me with us all globally paying x tax or something in regard to the environment and while we are technically doing our part 90% of the problem is not from us norm's. Most of it is China and most of it is industrial and it is them that needs to sort it.


On that though big  :cheers:  to the UK though for all the renewable energy work because its up there these days, no one really talks about it but you keep seeing news stories of days where the whole country has managed just on the renewable energy alone.

Well said, industry always seems to avoid being put under the microscope, instead Ken and Tracey get shamed for taking 2 weeks in Tenerife like they're some kind of eco-terrorists!
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on December 10, 2020, 13:29:42 PM
Excellent vid, I'm looking at another car soon (not to replace mine) it was going to be petrol anyway, but that video gave 2 pirate thumbs up to this decision  :ptu:

I'm very curious what this is going to be now  ;D
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: soopahfly on February 09, 2021, 10:58:39 AM
Is it though?  It all seems very short sighted, and I dare say the date will get pushed and pushed.  I don't disagree that burning dinosaurs has to come to an end, but in a lot of cases, the technology just isn't there yet.
Cars, sure.  Latest EV's will do the same range as your average petrol car on a tank.  I'm sure on an average trip that needs you to get out and fill up another tank for one leg of the journey, you'd be welcoming a stop off to stretch your legs.  Top off the car while you empty yourself and get something to eat.  Not much of a problem.  Expensive though for what they are.
Vans, meh, not really there yet.  Range isn't very good compared to what they are needing to do. and will rely on a range extender.  Taking up load space.
Busses, nope, not a chance, same as trucks. 
I can see merit in batteries being in the trailer for trucks, and have a smaller one in the cab.  Swap trailer at the destination for a fresh battery.  A lot are plugged in anyway for extra refridgerated storage.

One thing that's causing us some issue at the moment is a potential camper van purchase.  The wife isn't happy with diesel and the option for petrol is incredibly limited.
She's keen on Electric, but what she wants doesn't exist.  The range on new vans is poor vs a diesel van, half the places you may want to go will be away from charging points (can't use site hook up as they are usually limited to 10amp, and you need to run your van off it too)

There doesn't seem to be much progression from what I can see.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on February 09, 2021, 11:18:25 AM
You need to give it a few more years unfortunately to get the kind of vehicle you're after. Even in the space of the last year announcements have been made for more powerful batteries with twice the range across a broad number of marques, not just the likes of Tesla. Give it another 5 years you might start to see more realistic options appearing for people that aren't low mileage city dwellers or buying at the luxury price end where performance and range are already significant.

I reckon there isn't much further they will go with charger output as how fast do you really need to charge if you have the range and efficiency to begin with? It becomes detrimental to the battery after a point. Anything over 7kW isn't suitable for home installation anyway unless you want to spend thousands on a three phase system. Hopefully my home wall charger won't be sunset by some new charger type either for that reason.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: knighty on February 09, 2021, 16:25:48 PM
I look at electric vans all the time, electric transit vans have a real world range of about 80 miles :-o
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on February 10, 2021, 01:12:54 AM
I am sure that for some companies 80 miles is fine, especially in places like central London. Amazon is already buying them for some areas.

With new batteries and other options coming out the range should get larger over time.

What I would like to see is full battery packs that can be pulled out and pushed in to a different van. That would mean very fast change around and the batteries can be left to charge when needed.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: soopahfly on February 10, 2021, 09:20:13 AM
I am sure that for some companies 80 miles is fine, especially in places like central London. Amazon is already buying them for some areas.

With new batteries and other options coming out the range should get larger over time.

What I would like to see is full battery packs that can be pulled out and pushed in to a different van. That would mean very fast change around and the batteries can be left to charge when needed.

Renault had a system like that at first, and you had service stations that you drove onto and a robot removed the battery underneath and replaced it.
Didn't get very far with development though.

Battery tech will come, but at the moment for the longer distance use cases it's not ready.  And I imagine it won't be for another 10 years or so.
Cars are different.  The range is fine, the charging speed is mostly fine.  The cost is not.
Also, £0 ved needs to go too.  It's just another perk of being rich.  If you can afford one of these fancy electric cars, you can afford to pay VED.
It'll happen, once the government starts losing out on revenue.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on February 10, 2021, 10:24:16 AM
Also, £0 ved needs to go too.  It's just another perk of being rich.  If you can afford one of these fancy electric cars, you can afford to pay VED.
It'll happen, once the government starts losing out on revenue.

The issue there is that the only justifiable reason for VED being so high is based on emissions, so they couldn't possibly remove it until petrol and diesel are forced to be no longer options.  It won't be retrospective either if they do, so I think £0 VED is going to be around for a long time. Which is good news when you're looking to buy a second hand EV in 5-10 years time and you don't have to balk at the silly VED rates. There's enough people like me leasing electric that 2nd hand prices are going to start to drop, prices are already starting to look attractive on cars a few years old.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on February 13, 2021, 17:56:18 PM

Renault had a system like that at first, and you had service stations that you drove onto and a robot removed the battery underneath and replaced it.
Didn't get very far with development though.

One of the first electric bus companies had the idea of removable battery packs that were recharged in this way so the bus could keep going. Unfortunately, despite the buses being widely praised, the company owner was a scammer and could not see past his tendency for committing fraud.

New versions have ultracapacitors which can be charged in seconds and also allow storage of regenerative energy from braking. That opens the option of charging stations at bus stops to keep it topped up. It looks like Tesla is combining capacitors with batteries too, which will reduce "wear" on the batteries considerably and might give a near instant charge option to give a few miles range.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on February 15, 2021, 22:36:58 PM
Is it though?  It all seems very short sighted, and I dare say the date will get pushed and pushed.  I don't disagree that burning dinosaurs has to come to an end, but in a lot of cases, the technology just isn't there yet.
Cars, sure.  Latest EV's will do the same range as your average petrol car on a tank.  I'm sure on an average trip that needs you to get out and fill up another tank for one leg of the journey, you'd be welcoming a stop off to stretch your legs.  Top off the car while you empty yourself and get something to eat.  Not much of a problem.  Expensive though for what they are.
Vans, meh, not really there yet.  Range isn't very good compared to what they are needing to do. and will rely on a range extender.  Taking up load space.
Busses, nope, not a chance, same as trucks. 
I can see merit in batteries being in the trailer for trucks, and have a smaller one in the cab.  Swap trailer at the destination for a fresh battery.  A lot are plugged in anyway for extra refridgerated storage.

One thing that's causing us some issue at the moment is a potential camper van purchase.  The wife isn't happy with diesel and the option for petrol is incredibly limited.
She's keen on Electric, but what she wants doesn't exist.  The range on new vans is poor vs a diesel van, half the places you may want to go will be away from charging points (can't use site hook up as they are usually limited to 10amp, and you need to run your van off it too)

There doesn't seem to be much progression from what I can see.


We have electric busses starting to replace other busses by the end of the year here in Sydney with a complete role out by 2030 across greater Sydney as the plan. COVID is noted to be delaying all this but busses over here at least will happen soon.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: soopahfly on February 18, 2021, 17:22:04 PM
Is it though?  It all seems very short sighted, and I dare say the date will get pushed and pushed.  I don't disagree that burning dinosaurs has to come to an end, but in a lot of cases, the technology just isn't there yet.
Cars, sure.  Latest EV's will do the same range as your average petrol car on a tank.  I'm sure on an average trip that needs you to get out and fill up another tank for one leg of the journey, you'd be welcoming a stop off to stretch your legs.  Top off the car while you empty yourself and get something to eat.  Not much of a problem.  Expensive though for what they are.
Vans, meh, not really there yet.  Range isn't very good compared to what they are needing to do. and will rely on a range extender.  Taking up load space.
Busses, nope, not a chance, same as trucks. 
I can see merit in batteries being in the trailer for trucks, and have a smaller one in the cab.  Swap trailer at the destination for a fresh battery.  A lot are plugged in anyway for extra refridgerated storage.

One thing that's causing us some issue at the moment is a potential camper van purchase.  The wife isn't happy with diesel and the option for petrol is incredibly limited.
She's keen on Electric, but what she wants doesn't exist.  The range on new vans is poor vs a diesel van, half the places you may want to go will be away from charging points (can't use site hook up as they are usually limited to 10amp, and you need to run your van off it too)

There doesn't seem to be much progression from what I can see.


We have electric busses starting to replace other busses by the end of the year here in Sydney with a complete role out by 2030 across greater Sydney as the plan. COVID is noted to be delaying all this but busses over here at least will happen soon.

Are your busses the same as the ones in Canada, where they have electrification cables in the city, so when they get to main built up areas they can put the connection up and travel like trams?

I could see something working in the UK though, as our bus drivers only drive for about an hour before they stop for a break.  If they set off in the morning with a full battery, and when they stop at a terminus they can plug in to top up.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on February 19, 2021, 04:15:06 AM
Is it though?  It all seems very short sighted, and I dare say the date will get pushed and pushed.  I don't disagree that burning dinosaurs has to come to an end, but in a lot of cases, the technology just isn't there yet.
Cars, sure.  Latest EV's will do the same range as your average petrol car on a tank.  I'm sure on an average trip that needs you to get out and fill up another tank for one leg of the journey, you'd be welcoming a stop off to stretch your legs.  Top off the car while you empty yourself and get something to eat.  Not much of a problem.  Expensive though for what they are.
Vans, meh, not really there yet.  Range isn't very good compared to what they are needing to do. and will rely on a range extender.  Taking up load space.
Busses, nope, not a chance, same as trucks. 
I can see merit in batteries being in the trailer for trucks, and have a smaller one in the cab.  Swap trailer at the destination for a fresh battery.  A lot are plugged in anyway for extra refridgerated storage.

One thing that's causing us some issue at the moment is a potential camper van purchase.  The wife isn't happy with diesel and the option for petrol is incredibly limited.
She's keen on Electric, but what she wants doesn't exist.  The range on new vans is poor vs a diesel van, half the places you may want to go will be away from charging points (can't use site hook up as they are usually limited to 10amp, and you need to run your van off it too)

There doesn't seem to be much progression from what I can see.


We have electric busses starting to replace other busses by the end of the year here in Sydney with a complete role out by 2030 across greater Sydney as the plan. COVID is noted to be delaying all this but busses over here at least will happen soon.

Are your busses the same as the ones in Canada, where they have electrification cables in the city, so when they get to main built up areas they can put the connection up and travel like trams?

I could see something working in the UK though, as our bus drivers only drive for about an hour before they stop for a break.  If they set off in the morning with a full battery, and when they stop at a terminus they can plug in to top up.


Nope,
They have happened here and were a disaster.
We have new trams in Sydney and more routes coming with Trams planned and NSW has an outline to start replacing all City Busses as I said with originally 2025 but now saying 2030
You can see one article on some of them here:
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/2012/australias-largest-order-of-e-buses-placed-to-date
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on February 19, 2021, 04:16:02 AM
My Brother In-Law works for Mercedes high up in NZ and they been told internally that there will be a likely official outline and announcement but that they will be all Electrical sooner than later.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on February 22, 2021, 17:14:00 PM
Seems there is a new breed of cheaper electric cars for under £20,000. China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets. France has a 30MPH oddity for about E6,000, although it looks horrid to me. Ranges seem to be between 70-120 kilometres, enough for most daily commuting but not long distance stuff.

They are also trying to get a new process up and running to purify lithium to increase efficiency from 30% to 90%.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on February 22, 2021, 17:43:12 PM
China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets.

Seems a bit unfair, what's that based on? Most of the higher NCAP ratings now are about driver aids for mongs that shouldn't be on the road - like lane assist - not actual safety features.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on February 23, 2021, 03:12:11 AM
China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets.

Seems a bit unfair, what's that based on? Most of the higher NCAP ratings now are about driver aids for mongs that shouldn't be on the road - like lane assist - not actual safety features.
True


The other big take away though is that Companies and Governments (less so) are finally going electric and setting goals and green energy is really making ground. With that though....


- Battery tech is still lagging behind so it really needs big investment so more people going down the root for electric cars and everything else hopefully this gets the boost it needs


- Many of the Old rich are in Fossil Fuels. Australia's government ultimately is run by old school media (Murdoch Money) and Coal. These pay the Government pockets basically hence the whole google news facebook news. It is not about what is right or not, it is purely old media vs new.


- That leads to these old school rich and just how out of touch they are. Against all the new in part because it harms their business but they have not and many refused to adapt to changing times and quashing small start ups and so on for years has only got so far and now they are stuck loosing money as everyone else moves around them and they can only lean into the government politicians they fill the pockets with.
Another good example is Texas. Republican ran through and through since pretty much the birth of America. Built their own power grid to avoid lots of stuff, maximise profit and so on. Warned 10 years ago with the last bad winter, ignored it and messed up on multiple levels as a result. Using the media and politicians though making the big push to blame a Green deal that is not even in place for the state and green energy to be at fault. Of course it wasn't and it was all the fossil fuel power stations and other failings all of their own making. My point being though using their politicians  and old school media to fight their failings rather than actually evolving and moving with the times.


- A lot of the old shcool mega rich though are falling further down the rich lists and of course getting older and older and will not be around for that long. I think there are plenty of bumps in the road but I think there is enough to have hope for the future. I think the US election was a lot to do with the old America and people VS everyone who finally want to move on. America can not stick to it's old ways, it costs too much (well not for the rich) and is just outdated that hurts them.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: soopahfly on February 24, 2021, 12:53:18 PM
Seems there is a new breed of cheaper electric cars for under £20,000. China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets. France has a 30MPH oddity for about E6,000, although it looks horrid to me. Ranges seem to be between 70-120 kilometres, enough for most daily commuting but not long distance stuff.

They are also trying to get a new process up and running to purify lithium to increase efficiency from 30% to 90%.

Can't be that dismissive of Chinese car manufacturers, look at who they are.
Maxus (LDV), MG, Rover, Geely, Volvo, London Taxi International, Great Wall etc.  All have joint ventures with the more traditional manufacturers the world over.
Granted, I think there is a lot of copying of homework when you look at some of the cars, but that's not that dissimilar to how a lot of other companies started out.
The fact that China is actively encouraging alternative fuel use speaks volumes.

Most likely the reason these cars are so much cheaper is that the labour is considerably cheaper than here in the west and tariffs are likely lower.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on February 24, 2021, 23:49:40 PM
Seems there is a new breed of cheaper electric cars for under £20,000. China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets. France has a 30MPH oddity for about E6,000, although it looks horrid to me. Ranges seem to be between 70-120 kilometres, enough for most daily commuting but not long distance stuff.

They are also trying to get a new process up and running to purify lithium to increase efficiency from 30% to 90%.

Can't be that dismissive of Chinese car manufacturers, look at who they are.
Maxus (LDV), MG, Rover, Geely, Volvo, London Taxi International, Great Wall etc.  All have joint ventures with the more traditional manufacturers the world over.
Granted, I think there is a lot of copying of homework when you look at some of the cars, but that's not that dissimilar to how a lot of other companies started out.
The fact that China is actively encouraging alternative fuel use speaks volumes.

Most likely the reason these cars are so much cheaper is that the labour is considerably cheaper than here in the west and tariffs are likely lower.


- Some of the reasons why companies are actually pulling out of China is that they have to give the Chinese government all the plans for the product. These then just instantly get used to make copies.
- I am glad China is talking more green, they still have lots of resources but things like the Smog regardless of what it is doing to people and cities when it hits the world news it makes them look bad and in a lot of ways that government cares more about image than anything else. (I know in other cases they also kind of do not care, but China is a weird place in this regard)
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on March 03, 2021, 10:16:10 AM
China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets.

Seems a bit unfair, what's that based on? Most of the higher NCAP ratings now are about driver aids for mongs that shouldn't be on the road - like lane assist - not actual safety features.

It actually doesn't look too bad although only apparently being sold in China. They apparently teamed up with General Motors. This could be a game changer in cities if allowed into UK/EU/America.

I agree there are plenty of mongs on the roads, but then you have plenty of mongs in the UK Tory party in government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ytqr8T05OU
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: Serious on March 03, 2021, 10:27:39 AM
Seems there is a new breed of cheaper electric cars for under £20,000. China has a 60mph city wagon for well under $6K, although could well end up being proven a death trap if tested for EU/American markets. France has a 30MPH oddity for about E6,000, although it looks horrid to me. Ranges seem to be between 70-120 kilometres, enough for most daily commuting but not long distance stuff.

They are also trying to get a new process up and running to purify lithium to increase efficiency from 30% to 90%.

Can't be that dismissive of Chinese car manufacturers, look at who they are.
Maxus (LDV), MG, Rover, Geely, Volvo, London Taxi International, Great Wall etc.  All have joint ventures with the more traditional manufacturers the world over.
Granted, I think there is a lot of copying of homework when you look at some of the cars, but that's not that dissimilar to how a lot of other companies started out.
The fact that China is actively encouraging alternative fuel use speaks volumes.

Most likely the reason these cars are so much cheaper is that the labour is considerably cheaper than here in the west and tariffs are likely lower.


- Some of the reasons why companies are actually pulling out of China is that they have to give the Chinese government all the plans for the product. These then just instantly get used to make copies.
- I am glad China is talking more green, they still have lots of resources but things like the Smog regardless of what it is doing to people and cities when it hits the world news it makes them look bad and in a lot of ways that government cares more about image than anything else. (I know in other cases they also kind of do not care, but China is a weird place in this regard)

There are obvious cost cutting issues to get it that low, such as no airbags and no rear seats or no storage. Doesn't mean it couldn't be put in other markets but might need some work and a price increase. Then you have UK/EU taxes and tariffs.
Title: Re: The end of Petrol cars has started
Post by: neXus on March 04, 2021, 01:49:39 AM
They have to also pass the safety tests and England's are some of the most strict.