Author Topic: War in Iraq  (Read 2942 times)

  • Offline Serious

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War in Iraq
Reply #30 on: October 22, 2006, 18:54:42 PM
Quote from: maximusotter
Quote from: Serious

We certainly are not going to appologise about anything.


Why the F not? You screwed up, you enabled mass murder and suffering of gargantuan proportions if you supported this war.


I didnt screw up, the American government screwed up, the British government screwed up, the military screwed up too but it wasnt me personally. With the evidence available that was presented there was going to eventually be no other possible option but to use military force again.

The fact they didnt waith until the Grolche was ready doesnt put me at fault.

  • Offline Eagle

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War in Iraq
Reply #31 on: October 22, 2006, 21:27:58 PM
Quote from: Serious
With the evidence available that was presented there was going to eventually be no other possible option but to use military force again.

Even if the evidence was valid/confirmed, what gave the US and UK the right to invade a Sovereign State, killing thousands of civillians in the process?... No better than the actions of Saddam, who is now being prosecuted for them.

The coallition only invaded because they wanted to show they were "doing something" about Bin Laden.  I say again - whats being done about North Korea?  Nothing.  Because the US knows itll get a damn good hiding.
 

  • Offline Serious

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #32 on: October 23, 2006, 02:16:06 AM
Sovereign state implies a king or queen, not a dictator. The deal at the end of the first gulf war handled the other issues.

As for Korea they did go in previously, the MASH film and series were set in the Korean war. The only think that saved the N Koreans collective butts was the Chinese invading.

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #33 on: October 24, 2006, 14:40:05 PM
Quote from: Eagle

So, whats stopping the US "spanking" N Korea?...




This is very simple...  very simple.

Legally: Iraq was under obligation from the peace treaty at the end of the Gulf War to provide evidence of disarming their known weapons of mass destruction.  Without that evidence being provided and free inspection the ceasefire at the end of the first gulf war is no longer valid and hostilities resume.  There was a mandate from the United Nations to say that the worlds armed forces could legitimately restart hostilities if evidence was not provided.  It wasnt so they did.  On the other hand - no such agreement exists with North Korea so any invasion would be an illegal act.

Common Sense: Noone gives a monkeys about North Korea and a few countries (mainly the US) would love to wipe them off the face of the planet.  The problem is that they are backed by China and Russia.  Its not a question of balls.  If the US invaded North Korea we would enter World War 3.

The difference: One is a legally accepted continuation of hostilities which has happened throughout history when one side breaks the terms of a peace treaty the other would be an illegal invasion of a foreign soil which would almost without question begin a world war.


Quote from: Max
Why the F not? You screwed up, you enabled mass murder and suffering of gargantuan proportions if you supported this war. The US and UK had no right to commit the crime of invading the country, none, ZERO, zip, nada. It was true then, and is true now. Ive not budged in my own opinion of this war a single millimeter since day uno, and Im still right--but more pissed off than ever.

Not going to apologise? Then, as we are not supposed to do in Speakers Corner, I sincerely say F*** YOU. F*** you arrogant pieces of sh*t that have no shame. I sincerely hope that there is a hell that you racist and murder supporting assholes may rot in for all eternity.

You sir are so narrow minded sometimes it actually hurts me to think like you do.  The anti war movement has many valid point none of which you raise - you simply state things that arent true and throw in a lot of emotive nonsense to make them into a point.  As youre being so candid I think I can just about do the same.  I think you are generally uninformed but far worse than that youre stubborn to the point of not actually being able to comprehend things that disagree with your initial thought.  Speakers corner used to be a place where people could discuss things and while not everyone agrees with one another at least people learn and take something from the other sides opinions and experience.  Youd actually be able to structure your arguments better if you could grasp where the other person is coming from even if you dont agree with them.  The inability to do this is what is so frustrating.

Ive been involved in enough debates and conversations on this topic to appreciate that both sides have some pretty damn valid points and most people Ive encountered have usually been able to see both sides and make a rational choice where they stand on the matter.  You are the first that has managed to stick to their initial standpoint so resolutely with fingers in ears screaming f**k you to everyone else.  And for that alone I guess you deserve some kind of recognition.  At the end of the day it is your country that screwed most of it up so it giives you a bad name.  I would actually argue that your behaviour does about the same and makes the massively anti war extremists as bad as the Go Bush! side.  Despite how much you try and seperate yourself from the Bush administration - it is this single thought ignorance on their part and yours that annoys people.  Youre simply picking your line and standing on it without thinking about anything.  For the rest of us it just looks like youre standing on the other side of the fence shouting back at the Bush-ites in exactly the same matter.  One day hopefully youll see what youre doing and how alike you are and do something useful.

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #34 on: October 24, 2006, 14:52:54 PM
Quote
Even if the evidence was valid/confirmed, what gave the US and UK the right to invade a Sovereign State, killing thousands of civillians in the process?


On the particular case of legality of going into Iraq Ill try and bullet point it...



1) A peace treaty (like the one after the first gulf war) is only valid if both parties stick to the terms of that treaty.  Its exactly the same as a contract with any other person in the eyes of the law.  If we have a contract for me to buy work from you at a certain price and you then try and change it by either not providing the good or charging a different amount without my agreement then the contract is void and the earlier status returns (i.e. no purchase made).

2) The first gulf war was triggered when Saddam began releasing chemical and nerve agents on his neighbours (and his own people before that).  The UN decided to act and made it lawful to attack Iraq - this was the first gulf war - it is now lawful for UN member states to be at war with Iraq.

3) To stop hostilities.  Iraq agreed to a peace treaty.  The UN/USs part of the contract was to not attack anymore.  Iraqs part of the contract was to provide evidence of disarming and allow free inspections to ensure this.

4) Iraq did not provide there disarming information and certainly did not allow free inspection for an extended period.  They were threatened with action yet it was still not provided.

5) The contract/peace treaty is therefore broken/void and the earlier status is then returned to - i.e. the UN is still at war with Iraq.

6) The UN were unwilling to commit forces over th years since the first gulf war to enforce the terms of the treaty.  The US was now willing to go in on their behalf but to do so they need the agreement of the UN.  This is because the previous state before the peace treaty was the UN at war with Iraq and not the US plus a couple of other countries.  To return to the earlier state it had to be the UN attacking and not the US.

7) So, The US approach the UN and ask for a mandate which would allow them to take military action against Iraq on behalf of  and under the name of the UN.  They were given exactly this power by the UN in the first Mandate.

8 ) The US then resumed hostilites with Iraq (the pre contract situation and backed by the mandate saying member states could act alone).  This is the war on Iraq.  Even simple contract law explains why it was legal.



At which point isnt this legal?  The actual issue you should be highlighting is that the first mandate was obtained at a time where emotion was high and the other member states of the UN could claim that at the time action began the US was not totally acting on their behalf.  The member states of the UN should have demanded a second vote if they were really unsure to make the Us obtain a second mandate.  The member states never did this and thats why its legal for the US (and any UN member state) to restart hostilities with Iraq.

The legal cases against the US are more related to how they behaved during the war in terms of targets, conduct and human rights issues with prisoners.  This is distinctly different from an illegal war and is actually an internal issue for the US to deal with and the international courts.  Basically its sh*tty behaviour of the US military and leadership but the act of going to war is not illegal.  If someone goes into a supermarket and steals something it is the theft and the person involved who broke the law not the act of going into the supermarket.  In the same manner it was not illegal to enter Iraq but some of the acts committed while there were probably illegal (despite the way the US keeps trying to change the definition of torture etc).  This does not make every member state who was involved in the war on Iraq criminals - merely the soldiers and management who allowed illegal acts to occur.  PS: I would actually argue that the torture legislation and prisoner of war treatment by the US is illegal under international law but this isnt what is being said in this thread.

This is the difference between why the world is pretty pissed off with Bush and the US military and not so pissed at the other member states (The UK included) who didnt try and pull things like guantanamo bay and the torture tactics.

If people believe it was illegal to go into Iraq could you at least give a reason rather than just saying it is as if its fact.  At least then people could move onto something useful rather than digging around in propaganda and half truths.

  • Offline Eagle

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #35 on: October 24, 2006, 23:05:38 PM
Thank you for your enlightenment...

Legal, it may well be. I dont recall saying it was illegal, however.

So Iraq couldnt prove/disprove a few trivial matters... the invasion and occupation was/is still wrong and ill-motivated.

We will agree to differ.
 

  • Offline SteveF

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #36 on: October 25, 2006, 10:06:36 AM
Eagle I respect you opinion as it seems to be thought through, it was Max who pissed me off with calling anyone not agreeing with him racist and deserved to go to hell.  Max did say it was illegal to go to war.  I think Ive shown it was legal and hes talking out of his ass.


Quote
So Iraq couldnt prove/disprove a few trivial matters...


Trivial?  They used chemical and nerve agents to systematically exterminate thousands of kurdish people in the region in and around Iraq.  At the end of the gulf war they were simply required to destroy the weapons they used to commit genocide.  That really isnt unreasonable or a trivial thing not to do.

If youve seen what these weapons do to people and know the scale Saddam used them in and before the first gulf war then hopefully youll rethink how trivial it is to ask him to destroy them.

PS: It should be Iraq wouldnt prove/disprove a few trivial matters...  They could have very easily - they chose not to.

  • Offline Serious

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #37 on: October 25, 2006, 11:11:37 AM
Quote from: Eagle
the invasion and occupation was/is still wrong and ill-motivated.
 


A thing can be right for the reasons given openly but wrong for other reasons. Personally the original invasion was right, how it was carried out was wrong. I was certainly reticent about the short time limit they set before it was carried out and I certainly dont like the way the American troops have behaved and in some instances ours too. The went in with insufficient manpower and resources which resulted in a power vaccume. The attitude of the American troops to the locals didnt help either.

War in Iraq
Reply #38 on: October 25, 2006, 17:51:13 PM
Lets sum it up.

Saddam=zero threat to UK and USA
Saddam=zero support of Al Quaeda
Weapons Inspections: showing no threat
Satellite: showing no threat
Intelligence: showing no threat

This war was a random act of aggression which has resulted in HALF A MILLION ADDITIONAL DEATHS AND DESTABILIZED AND ENTIRE REGION POSSIBLY LEADING TO WWIII.

Support it from the beginning? Youre a muppet. Still support it? Youre a murderous asshole racist ignorant thug cretin piece of sh*t under the heel of my boot.

Steve F, Serious, Dave--how stupid are you? Did you eat lead paint? Was your mother punched in the belly at 8 1/2 months? Do you keep putting a fork in the socket cause it might feel good this time?  This war was a failure from day one, as it was unjustified--and its YOUR FAULT. End Stop. You cant walk away from it. Youre associates to MURDER. War and murder on a massive scale like Iraq, can only happen when enough of the public is f***ing moronic, like you three, and allows it. Me, Im outraged,and have been for over three years. Im sick of murder in my countrys name, and Im sick of gasbag tools that still muse about the righteousness of this war.

Support this war now, or claim that there was a right to do it in the first place? Youre an insult to the chromosomes that made you.

Claim that the "war wasnt done right" and youre an even bigger insult to common sense. Every single conflict the UK or US has EVER had with the ME has proven that force will never ever give us our "goal" in the region.

Even more absurd is Afghanistan. The Brits were there just 70 years ago thinking they could change things.

Sisyphusian douchebags, the lot of you.


  • Offline Serious

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War in Iraq
Reply #39 on: October 25, 2006, 18:06:22 PM
Quote from: maximusotter
Lets sum it up.

Saddam=zero threat to UK and USA
> He had invaded Kuwait and posed a significant threat to the stability of the region

Saddam=zero support of Al Quaeda
> Not my fault Americans are stupid.

Weapons Inspections: showing no threat
> At the time not proven and he had kicked the inspectors out.

Satellite: showing no threat
>You believe sats can provide reliable intelligence in that sort of situation? :shock:

Intelligence: showing no threat
> Intelligence agencies said there was at least some probability that he still had WOMD. They couldnt confirm as Saddam had effectively thrown the weapons inspectors out


Oh and I think you have had too much contact with the GOP mate, start reading the posts and where they *AGREE* with you. *NOBODY* is happy with the present situation in IRAQ or the death toll but if all you can do is insult people then they arent going to respond very well to you or your arguments.

War in Iraq
Reply #40 on: October 25, 2006, 18:13:48 PM
Quote from: Serious

Oh and I think you have had too much contact with the GOP mate, start reading the posts and where they *AGREE* with you. *NOBODY* is happy with the present situation in IRAQ or the death toll but if all you can do is insult people then they arent going to respond very well to you or your arguments.


You supported the war in the beginning. Therefore, you are an idiot and an enabler of murder. It was never winnable. Dont even try to explain your cupability away. You and your ilk are responsible.

You can bullsh*t on about "the present situation" and try to distance yourself from it. Try to wash the blood from your hands, but it wont come off.

I will continue to not insult you, but call you an accessory to a crime, untill you get on your hands and knees and apologize for being a moron.

  • Offline Serious

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Re:War in Iraq
Reply #41 on: October 25, 2006, 18:17:02 PM
Ok maxi rant time over and thread closed as you obviously have problems with this topic..

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