What I meant was that given all the flag waving that goes on, I really thought that linux was catching up and it does appear to be. Its come on leaps and bounds since I used it last (about forever ago).

I guess its still not quite spoon fed enough though, do you know what I mean ? I think a lot of this is caused by the fractured nature of the development and distribution chain. i.e.

There are 2 (or more) incompatible update repositories, so you pick one and stick with it ?
There are at least 3 different GUIs for getting updates, plus a commandline option.
There is no obvious mechanisim for getting / updating drivers.
There is still a whole rake of manual file editing that has to be done to accomplish simple tasks; like getting the latest ATI driver to load after a reboot ?!
Oh and the other thing that has driven me mad today/tonight is the fact that there is no consistancy between "OK / Cancel / Apply", "Yes / No / Cancel" button orders on messages / forms and also how they work differs !?!?

Obviously nothing can be done about that but it does lead to a slightly less than idea experience for the casual user.


All that said, I am still giving it a go because I really need to understand if it will be of benifit to work (and now, I am trying to find out why so many people defend it to the hilt )

Distro choice and DE matter. Find one that works for you. Remember, KDE or Gnome or the System tools of various distros are not Linux, they are simply collections of software.

Getting the ATI driver is a matter of two minutes on the command line. Big deal. It might not be pretty, but it is straightforward. Other than that, there are tons of tools for everthing if you dont want to edit text files. I find it comforting, that if I have to, I can, and theyre easy to read and usually well commented.

As for updates, with Ubuntu, it periodically checks for patches and updates, then puts a little icon in your tray, just like that operating system. Youre automatically subscribed to the base system. Checking a couple tick boxes and you can get the bleeding edge backports and nonfree software. Very very easy.

The consistency of dialogs has to do with the environment you choose, and the program collection within that environment. QT based and gtk based software is a bit inconsistent with each other. I dont have any QT software on my box so I dont get any such inconsistencies. Works the other way around as well.

The reason Im a Ubuntu fan is really the ease of support and the Debian base. Its a good model T distro, and a quick search of their massive forums can usually solve problems in minutes:

http://ubuntuforums.org/

Give it a try for a bit. Its very different from MS in the whole utilitarian granularity of it all. Yes, there can be hurdles, but the solutions are almost always easy to wrap your brain around. For example, if youre forced for some reason to edit an /etc/X11 text file, which happens rarely, it feels like a blessing instead of being bluescreened out of your system.

Nimrod your doing exactly what most linux newbies do. Dissing it cause you cant do it. You would have had the same problems when you first used windows but now youve got used to doing that obviously that is the only way hings should be done.

Get ubuntu (its a server aswell if you wish) and choose safe graphics option on install (or boot up as its a live cd to start).

once installed goto the command line and type:
 
sudo apt-get install xorg-driver-fglrx sudo apt-get install

linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r)

dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg (Select the fglrx driver when prompted)

Quote from: NimrodThere are 2 (or more) incompatible update repositories, so you pick one and stick with it ?

EH?

QuoteThere are at least 3 different GUIs for getting updates, plus a commandline option.

just the synaptic

QuoteThere is no obvious mechanisim for getting / updating drivers.

comes with the kernel and updates

QuoteThere is still a whole rake of manual file editing that has to be done to accomplish simple tasks; like getting the latest ATI driver to load after a reboot ?!

simple three lines you copy and paste and takes 2 minutes max

QuoteOh and the other thing that has driven me mad today/tonight is the fact that there is no consistancy between "OK / Cancel / Apply", "Yes / No / Cancel" button orders on messages / forms and also how they work differs !?!?

got me there WTF u on about?

like getting the latest ATI driver to load after a reboot ?!

You dont need to reboot to change your graphics driver in Linux  

simply change that file - make it point at the new driver, and then hit ctrl+alt+backspace.

When you come back things should be looking better

you may not like editing text files yet, but youll be thankful when you break something.. and that you can still log in and edit (i.e. fix) the thing, unlike with windows where you just have to hope Safe Mode works

Use Alacarte menu editor to get rid of the shortcuts to the other update / install program things... I use Synaptic, or just open a terminal & use apt-get

Quote from: brummieNimrod your doing exactly what most linux newbies do. Dissing it cause you cant do it. You would have had the same problems when you first used windows but now youve got used to doing that obviously that is the only way hings should be done.

You misunderstand my whining! Im not moaning because I cannot do it, I am moaning because of how convoluted and confusing some of the tasks are.

Quote from: brummieGet ubuntu (its a server aswell if you wish) and choose safe graphics option on install (or boot up as its a live cd to start).

once installed goto the command line and type:
 

Code Select Expand

sudo apt-get install xorg-driver-fglrx sudo apt-get install

Code Select Expand

linux-restricted-modules-$(uname -r)

Code Select Expand

dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg (Select the fglrx driver when prompted)

Quote from: NimrodThere is still a whole rake of manual file editing that has to be done to accomplish simple tasks; like getting the latest ATI driver to load after a reboot ?!

Quote from: brummiesimple three lines you copy and paste and takes 2 minutes max

Im not trying to start a fight but look at what youve typed above and then tell me if you honestly think a noob should be having to type things like that to get their OS working ?

The RPM Repositories thing: From what I have read if I download an application from the Livna repository then I have to make sure I get that applications updates from Livna. If I pull the updates from another repository (by mistake) it could install to the wrong place and knacker the application install.

On Fedora its yum, not apt. But yes it appears to be a similar idea. There are (or were) 3 very different yum GUIs on my Fedora install until about 20mins ago. They each used the same config to do the same job but looked completely different.

QuoteOh and the other thing that has driven me mad today/tonight is the fact that there is no consistancy between "OK / Cancel / Apply", "Yes / No / Cancel" button orders on messages / forms and also how they work differs !?!?

got me there WTF u on about?
[/quote]

When you quit an application and it pops up asking you if you want to save your changes, the "Yes/No/Cancel" button order on the message box is not consistant between applications...So people like me, who anticipate some form of consistancy (not to MS but just in general) are screwed

Quote from: snellgroveYou dont need to reboot to change your graphics driver in Linux  

simply change that file - make it point at the new driver, and then hit ctrl+alt+backspace.

Again, its like wtf would I (a noob) know to press ctrl+alt+backspace to kill X / Log out ?

Quote from: snellgroveyou may not like editing text files yet, but youll be thankful when you break something.. and that you can still log in and edit (i.e. fix) the thing, unlike with windows where you just have to hope Safe Mode works

Yeap youre probably right but right now I am not trying to recover from a nim-up, Im just trying to get a fresh install working !


I think my main bugbare is with how all of this information assumes that you know linux inside and out. For instance, inorder to get the ATI driver installed on my box this is what I was advise to do (on a FAQ site) http://www.fedorafaq.org/#radeon:

Make a decision between whether I need kmod-fglrx or kmod-fglrx-smp,  because from the naming it is obvious that they are ATI drivers and the differences are clear ?

Use yum to download the update by typing on the command line.

"Fix SELinux so that the driver will work" setsebool -P allow_execmod=1
Well if this is a driver, why am I have to "fix Linux" to make the driver work ?

Shutdown X (init 3) - Goes to a black screen
login as root - I cannot, there is nothing to type into ?

ati-fglrx-config-display enable
So this has to happen while X is dead but I cannot kill X and leave myself with a Term ? *yay*

Restart X (init 5) - Ill go one better and reboot

If youve got an Intel mobo you have to add the folloing to the fglrx driver section in the xorg.conf file...
Option "UseInternalAGPGART" "no"

What does the xorg-conf file do ? and whose Gart Driver am I disabling ? Intels or ATIs ? More to the Point, why am I having to do this manually ?



---
I just think that Linux has a long way to go on the usability front. I quite like it as it is very configurable but looking at it from the POV of a user its a freaking nightmare. There is no way I could give my parents a linux based PC, theyd be screwed. They dont know (or need to know) about hacking configuration files to get the OS to work. They should be able to download and run an installer, and everything be done for them !

I quite like this Fedora install so I wont be changing to another flavour just yet

Although I have already found 1 reason why linux will not stay on this PC for very long. It is a media server but neither the Xbox360 nor my DivX streamer can access the files on the server :/

The 360 requires a piece of software to be running on the server and there is no Linux port.
The DivX player just doesnt like the Samba shares, even though they are fine from other devices on my LAN

Never mind, its still an experience...almost like a summer holiday

if you want evrything working from install then fedora is not the right choice

try: http://www.pclinuxos.com - live cd the same as ubuntu

link to ati version 0.92 - ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/metalab/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/pclinuxos-p92-ati8500up.iso

EVERYTHING, yes EVERYTHING including your ATi card works from the install.

Will say expecting the MS xbox to login nicely with linux is a bit nieve
DivX im sure should be able to be sorted but i dont have the knowledge soz

You werent to know, being a n00b  but if you want a really decent *nix box... stay with nvidia. they write really good drivers for Linux

its all experience I suppose, at least your having a dabble its a damn uncomfortable feeling when you first use a new O/S as it is fundamentally different all over!

Quote from: NimrodIm not trying to start a fight but look at what youve typed above and then tell me if you honestly think a noob should be having to type things like that to get their OS working ?

and as for typing stuff like that to "get the O/S working" well, thats swings and roundabouts.

you have to edit a few files in *nix... in windows you have to service pack and patch like buggery, register and validate with genuine disadvantage, sign EULAs and apply Anti-Virus and Anti-Spyware, Anti-Malware, younameit and generally secure the thing.

what do you prefer? id take editing a few files every now and then over that anyday.

I love the way linux is free and open, and Gnome is very customizable. The Deskbar applet is a wonderful cross between a GUI & a terminal.

Once you get Gnome all setup just the way you want, it suddenly makes windows XP feel very rigid "have to do things X way.." where Gnome is a much more modern environment.. its more flexible (a new Gnome is released every 6 months!! so its bang up to date with improvements whereas good ol explorer.exe gets to be pretty old before its updated.)

It does seem that its all a little bit more involved than just installing the OS. From what youve all said and a lot of reading I have now done, I can see that I was nieve thinking that you could just pick a distro at will and expect it to work I guess I have been more spoilt by Windows than I realised !

The other thing you have to remember, especially with me, is that my job is in designing and developing Windows applications. I am by no means a fanboy because I get to see the darker, flakey sides of MS products on a daily basis! That said though, there is a consistancy about their products that just makes them easier to use. Yes this is partially down to how well I know their products but it is also down to the fact that the entire product base is finished using a set of *MS* standards. This is the one thing that I feel is missing from Linux.

Im going to keep playing with it and I think I will port my Dual Xeon server over to Fedora from Win2k AS, that is once I have figured out how to get Samba working properly and determined how to install and configure a VPN server

It is all very nice and very configurable but imo, Linux would do better if the distro companies spent their time concentrating on the actual OS side of things. Leave the user to decide if they want Apache, OpenOffice etc installed. Then the companies who create those applications should concentrate on having a simple way to install them (and their dependancies). Yum / apt would be a great tool for that if it made it easier to figure out what it was that you needed !

Quote from: NimrodIt does seem that its all a little bit more involved than just installing the OS. From what youve all said and a lot of reading I have now done, I can see that I was nieve thinking that you could just pick a distro at will and expect it to work I guess I have been more spoilt by Windows than I realised !

The other thing you have to remember, especially with me, is that my job is in designing and developing Windows applications. I am by no means a fanboy because I get to see the darker, flakey sides of MS products on a daily basis! That said though, there is a consistancy about their products that just makes them easier to use. Yes this is partially down to how well I know their products but it is also down to the fact that the entire product base is finished using a set of *MS* standards. This is the one thing that I feel is missing from Linux.

Im going to keep playing with it and I think I will port my Dual Xeon server over to Fedora from Win2k AS, that is once I have figured out how to get Samba working properly and determined how to install and configure a VPN server

It is all very nice and very configurable but imo, Linux would do better if the distro companies spent their time concentrating on the actual OS side of things. Leave the user to decide if they want Apache, OpenOffice etc installed. Then the companies who create those applications should concentrate on having a simple way to install them (and their dependancies). Yum / apt would be a great tool for that if it made it easier to figure out what it was that you needed !

seriously, try ubuntu. Dont base everything linux on what youve got installing fedora.
Ubuntu is very geared to being either a server software or desktop software. Its very well thought out and though not strictly for noobs its very easy to configure and manage with its great user base and forums. Why do you think its such a hot OS nowadays?

Ill grab the Ubuntu Server edition (as that is what I am trying to achieve)

I still cannot believe that none of you will admit that Linux is still too young and complicated to be a main stream consumer desktop OS.

I can see benifits in running it on a server as long as the servers have supported hardware; which I dont think mine will have (SATA, ATI and ACPI) ! Linux is a great idea if youve got a time to spend ironing out any little problems (which I can on a home install). Oh and that youve picked compatible HW in the first place !

If you need quick, consistant results though, Windows is still the way forward imo.

Game Over for Fedora


Its now not booting ! 12+ hours of fiddling around and then suddenly while browsing it hangs and will not recover

Its hanging booting the Kenel?!

ubuntu coming next...?

yeah

Just waiting for the ISO DL to finish and then Ill be whacking it on, just for you

Bloody Linux !

Quote from: Nimrodyeah

Just waiting for the ISO DL to finish and then Ill be whacking it on, just for you

Bloody Linux !

LOL

dont forget the safe driver option when first booting from CD and install the drivers later.