Any thoughts?
http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/news/Ex-soldier-faces-jail-handing-gun/article-1509082-detail/article.html
That is totally wrong and makes me lose even more faith in the police and justice system.
i bet the jury was made up of middle easterns
Quote from: DEViANCEThat is totally wrong and makes me lose even more faith in the police and justice system.
at least they get to put a tick in their firearms target box
Problem is that if this is quashed it would become a valid defence to claim you were on your way to the police station if you were caught with a gun.
The burden of proof would change to the police, theyd have to prove intent whenever they caught someone with a gun. A pretty hard thing to do, it would make it pointless arresting someone for possession since youd only have circumstantial evidence on the intent.
Hopefully the fact that he phones the police to ask if he could bring it in will provide enough of a defence for this guy but it could set a dangerous precedent.
This sh*t really makes me angry! Surely it is common sense that if he was going to use it he wouldnt hand it in!!!
Either he or the Jury are bloody idiots!!!
Quote from: sexytwProblem is that if this is quashed it would become a valid defence to claim you were on your way to the police station if you were caught with a gun.
Same way its a valid defence if found carrying stolen goods/drugs that you had found them and were on the way to hand them in?
QuoteHopefully the fact that he phones the police to ask if he could bring it in will provide enough of a defence for this guy but it could set a dangerous precedent.
Hes already been found guilty though from what I can gather and is awaiting sentencing?
The way the article reads it almost sounds like he didnt say about the gun on the phone and literally arranged an appointment before going to the police station and taking the gun out and placing it on the desk in front of the officer.
If someone were to calmly reach down into a bag, pull out a gun and place it on the desk in front of you/them, what would you be thinking? ><
Though yeah, its not right hes been charged, though tbh Id have said hed have been better off reporting it properly over the phone so the police could handle it...which he cant have done as if hed said "yeah, so I found this gun..." theyd have sent someone out in a flash.
Then again the way that it sounds theyve interpreted the law here they would have still arrested him for possession of a firearm. This literal interpretation of the law surely means you could get a firearm from somewhere and chuck it into a neighbours garden and report them, and theyll get 5 years minimum as theyre in possession of it. Doesnt matter that its not theirs?!
fair enough, if he was walking along the road with it.... but he was in the police station with it, got it out, and put it down on the table before they even knew he had it !
this does beg the question "what the hell was he SUPPOSED to do?"
absolute disgrace.
I would have phoned them and asked them to collect in-situ.
Dumb-ass, for sure, but five years?....
Quote from: Mongoosethis does beg the question "what the hell was he SUPPOSED to do?"
absolute disgrace.
This almost deserves a poll tbh.
Along the lines of:
You are doing some gardening, discover a bag at the bottom of your garden. Upon opening it, you discover a gun, and what appears to be some live ammunition. What do you do?
A: Take the gun inside, wait 12+ hours, call the police to see if itd be ok to come in for a chat, and then bring the gun in and plonk it on their desk?
B: Take the gun inside so no one else can come across it and use it/hurt themselves, call the police and inform them of the situation
C: Keep it
D: Do nothing
I dunno, maybe my opinion on it is biased living where I do and having been to places next to or near military training grounds, where you are frequently warned that if you find anything suspicious (as in munitions etc) do not touch it and contact local authorities. To me it seems common sense that if you find ammuntion/weapons (especially something in a bin bag that can only really have been used illegally and is therefore likely evidence in a crime) you dont bloody touch it, and if its too late for that you get the police ASAP? Do people that have never been to such places have a similar sense, or is it actually likely that most people dont know what to do if they find something like this?
Maybe part of the problem was the guy being a soldier, guns didnt exactly freak him out and he took it in his stride, knowing that it would be as safe with him as it would a policeman for the time being?
Quote from: EagleI would have phoned them and asked them to collect in-situ.
Dumb-ass, for sure, but five years?....
exactly, what I find disturbing is that this man seems to have been handed a mandatory minimum 5 years in the nick for making a wrong judgement call in a situation he cannot possibly have been prepared for.
Yes, his judgement was incorrect, at the least he should have warned the officer he spoke to on the phone of why he wanted to come in, but it seems like the kind of mistake which ought to result in 5 minutes of pandemonium followed by a rather angry few words from the Plod along the lines of "thank you for handing this weapon in Sir, but for the love of God tell us in advance next time", not 5 years in the nick.
What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Agreed with mongoose.
He didnt use common sense and should have never took the firearm anywhere.
Granted I wouldnt have left it in my garden, but I would never have attempted to travel with it.
A slap on the wrist is in order, no law is "strict liability".
Quote from: MongooseWhat happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
have you not read the article?
hes being done for possession. not intent. how can he defend himself against posession?
Matt
Ive been thinking about this. I think the guy might have foolishly been expecting some kind of award or hero comendation. Phone up and booking an appointment without mentioning the gun seems deliberate, i think he may have been expecting to reveal the gun to a round of applause and praise for doing such a good job.
On the legal note, yes, he is quilty of possession. The problem is the regulation of a 5 year minimum sentence. Im sure hundereds of people a year are illegally in possession of a fire arm on some technicality, like at gun shops, shows, shooting ranges etc. Really there shouldnt be a minimum sentence so the hedge had discression and can let him off.
However the government like a minimum sentence as a deterrent for those considering carrying a gun. Also makes for good soundbites and headlines so its not going away. No politician will stand up and say "were removing the minimum sentence for carrying a gun". So were stuck with this legal oddity.
Quote from: sexytwIve been thinking about this. I think the guy might have foolishly been expecting some kind of award or hero comendation. Phone up and booking an appointment without mentioning the gun seems deliberate, i think he may have been expecting to reveal the gun to a round of applause and praise for doing such a good job.
I was thinking more that he wanted to make a point of "I found this at the bottom of my garden, wtf are you guys being paid for?" rather than get a pat on the back :/
Quote from: bytejunkieQuote from: MongooseWhat happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
have you not read the article?
hes being done for possession. not intent. how can he defend himself against posession?
Matt
you make a good point, he clearly was in possession of an illegal firearm. Does it not seem wrong to you though that transporting a gun you have just found to the local cop-shop in order to hand it in and have it safely disposed of carries the same penalty as carrying a piece with intent to use it on another human being?
I dont think anyone here is arguing that he went about this the right way, but in the words of Queen Elizabeth I "if we went around punishing people for being stupid, Nursey would have been in prison all her life".
What should have happened is Chief Supernintendo Jobsworth should have quietly given him a stern warning, advised on the correct procedure, then let him go with the weapon confiscated.
Quote from: Mongoosethis does beg the question "what the hell was he SUPPOSED to do?"
absolute disgrace.
youre supposed to just call the police
replace gun with dead body - you find a dead body at the bottom of your garden do you a) call the police or b) make an appointment to see the chief inspector, not mention what the appointment is for, leave the dead body in your house overnight then walk into the police station and dump the dead body on his desk......
the fact that there is a or gun at the bottom of your garden indicates that a serious offence might have taken place - the police tend to like to collect forensic evidence when a serious offence takes place - contaminating the scene is likely to piss them off, bringing it into the inspectors office and dumping it on his desk with no prior explanation will piss them off further....
the guy was a bit of a spanner on that part and the law is designed so that there isnt really any excuse for posession and quite frankly there really isnt (aside from being a complete dumbass).
edit - should add I do have some sympathy regarding the sentence but unfortunately it isnt really something that can be changed much given how the law has been designed.
Quote from: zpyderMaybe part of the problem was the guy being a soldier, guns didnt exactly freak him out and he took it in his stride, knowing that it would be as safe with him as it would a policeman for the time being?
but this is the reason why what he did is especially dumb
every member of the armed forces should be fully aware that what he did is a offence - theyre reminded of this fact evey time they leave a firing range or training area.
basically you all line up and officer running the range/exercise etc.. explains to everyone that it is both a military and civilian offence if they leave the range with any live rounds/blank rounds, empty cases or pyrotechnics in thier posession, an NCO then goes round and checks everyones pouches for empty cases and a verbal declaration is taken off everyone present - this happenes after every range day/exercise by all military units - essentially this ex-soldier will have been reminded hundreds of times throughout his career that it is a serious offence - given this you really do have to presume that the guy was a massive massive mong.
The issue isnt that the crime wasnt obvious but that the penalty is ridiculously over the top.
i think there are some valid points on both sides of the arguments. However as someone has stated, possesion is the crime, not possesion with intent. I think the judge will have his hands tied by the law (that is even if he wanted to let him off)
Ok, so possession is the crime and the penalty if found guilty is bound by law.
How about a scenario where you are walking through a park, and glance into a kids playground, and spot the bag with the barrel of the shotgun sticking out somewhere in there, and kids are playing around.
Im guessing the logical thing is call the police and ask if it will be ok to move it away from where the kids are. If they say yes, great, if they say no, its no longer your responsibility...