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Chat => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mongoose on March 11, 2011, 09:35:54 AM

Title: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 11, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
there has been a huge earthquake and tsunami in Japan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12710999

I hope skidzilla is ok!
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on March 11, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
Thankfully they are well prepared for these things, but even so I hope he's not been unlucky. It seems a lot of the low lying farmland is going to have been ruined.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 11, 2011, 11:58:45 AM
I hope skidzilla is ok!

Me too, it's really ripped up some shiat  :gag:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: XEntity on March 11, 2011, 12:22:48 PM
Thankfully they are well prepared for these things, but even so I hope he's not been unlucky. It seems a lot of the low lying farmland is going to have been ruined.

They are indeed prepared, but just looking on BBC News 24, there's some stuff you just can't prepare for this is an 8.9 with 7.1 after shocks, some of the coastal areas are just getting swamped by the looks of it, not to mention the fires in land.
 
I too hope he is ok!
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 11, 2011, 12:47:47 PM
hopefully chip prices wont rocket like they did 15 years when Kobe was hit. £100 for 1mb  :gag:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 11, 2011, 12:59:41 PM
Coolings failed on one of the nuclear reactors, uh oh  :worried:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on March 11, 2011, 14:09:36 PM
Apparently the fire at the reactor has been put out, but they are still on emergency status.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 11, 2011, 15:25:36 PM
Coolings failed on one of the nuclear reactors, uh oh  :worried:

maybe some lizard will get infected & grow 200 foot high & go on an angry rampage.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mardoni on March 11, 2011, 17:03:45 PM
maybe some lizard will get infected & grow 200 foot high & go on an angry rampage.
:evil:

Hope Skidzilla et al. are ok.
It's the massive whirlpool that appeared that really surprised me, I've never seen anything like that before.

It does go to show how good planning and design can help limit damage though. Considering the magnitude of this quake and it's after shocks compared to the NZ one, the actual damage to buildings looks so much less extensive.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 11, 2011, 18:05:17 PM
the NZ one was very shallow and close to the city though, whereas this one was offshore. I don't know how deep it was though.

That whirlpool certainly is impressive.

I seem to remember learning in school many many years ago that the Japanese build their buildings using special techniques to make them withstand earthquakes as well as possible.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 11, 2011, 18:24:02 PM
hopefully chip prices wont rocket like they did 15 years when Kobe was hit. £100 for 1mb  :gag:

I remember that, I had serious geek bragging rights when I upgraded my 486 to 4mb Ram.

Good luck skidz.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 11, 2011, 19:49:47 PM
The footage is grotesquely compelling. It's unusual to see such an epic catastrophe documented so well by so many normal people.

I had a few tense moments until I heard from some good friends who are over there at the moment but thankfully they all seem to be okay.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 11, 2011, 19:53:38 PM
Just spoke to a Japanese bloke to ask him about the Tsunami news... He was more interested in his Friday night, kept shouting about some massive rave
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: neXus on March 11, 2011, 20:50:26 PM
Their cities are built to shake and they are used to it so they are ok. It is the land with the wave of water that has just tashed everything in its past, farmland, homes, cars, boats and people - whooped into a pile of mush :(

We are just getting 1M waves around the shore and will do for a few hours. We been told not to go near the beaches today.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 11, 2011, 21:43:58 PM
2139: Radiation levels at the damaged Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant are continuing to rise. The Jiji Press news agency says the levels are eight times above normal. Its report also cites a ministry official as saying there is a "possibility of a radioactive leak".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 11, 2011, 21:58:19 PM
2149: The Kyodo news agency is now citing a safety panel as saying that the radiation level inside one of the reactors at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is 1,000 times higher than normal.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 11, 2011, 22:52:19 PM
Stupid boiling water reactors! looks like they're going to have to vent the steam from the reactor. I wonder what happened to the emergency cooling circulators. Most reactors have at least 4 circs and in shutdown condition one of them working would probably be enough. Certainly British reactors always have at least 3 backups for everything, would have thought the Japs would be similar.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: XEntity on March 11, 2011, 23:15:08 PM
Looks like two stations are having issues:


2310:
More from the Tokyo Electric Power Company: It says the ability to control pressure in some of the reactors at Fukushima-Daini has been lost. Pressure is stable inside the reactors, but rising in the containment vessels, a company spokesman says.

2252: The Tokyo Electric Power Company has said the cooling systems of three reactors at second nuclear power plant, Fukushima-Daini, are malfunctioning, according to the Kyodo news agency. The plant is 11km (7 miles) to the south of Fukushima-Daiichi, where the cooling system one of its reactors is not working and pressure is rising.   

2239:
Japanese nuclear safety officials have said the problems at the Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant represent "no immediate health hazard" to people living nearby. Some 45,000 people living within a 10km (6-mile) radius of the plant were told to evacuate as radiation levels rose to 1,000 times above normal in one reactor.   
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 12, 2011, 01:12:24 AM
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/11/from-the-sky-aerial.html
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Shaun on March 12, 2011, 01:27:19 AM
sh*t!

Brings our problems with the environment back in December into prospective :worried: 
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 12, 2011, 14:10:21 PM
and now there's been a mag 6.0 aftershock on top of said nuclear power station.

The reactor whose building has blown up is an old design, circa 1970 according to Wikipedia. It seems like they may have deliberately vented coolant into the secondary containment to reduce pressure inside the reactor. Of course I don't know but it seems possible the secondary containment couldn't take the pressure. The other major possibility seems to be a hydrogen explosion, but the generation of hydrogen requires melted fuel so I'm hoping that's not what it is.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 12, 2011, 14:25:44 PM
I thought the idea was you could just drop the control rods and stop the reaction to stop stuff like this getting too serious?
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 12, 2011, 14:38:59 PM
the emergency shutdown system will kill the chain reaction in around 10 seconds, but in a reactor which has been operating for any length of time there will be a large amount of radioactive waste products in the fuel. A lot of these decay quickly, releasing heat as they do so, so you have to keep the cooling system running for at least a few days after shutdown, otherwise your fuel rods heat up until the cladding melts and then you start to get real problems.

It's looking increasingly like they evacuated the site, then vented steam into the containment building. If there has been any melting of the fuel, the steam could well include hydrogen which then exploded, destroying the containment building. Since the reactor is a 1970s unit, they would have been thinking about decommissioning it shortly anyway, so they wont bother trying to repair it. They will therefore now cool it with sea water (probably the secondary coolant anyway) and everything should be fine.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 12, 2011, 16:00:41 PM
It almost feels as though there is a bit of a media blackout in force with information coming out in dribs and drabs and the information only being released well after we already know it's happened.

Case in point being the reactor building. Everyone had seen the footage of the explosion tearing the roof and walls off yet everything official was debating about exactly which building it was that exploded.

When they finally admitted something it was that the "ceiling collapsed".

I think it's pretty safe to say based on past nuclear related accidents that people will be told much later than they should have been that anything untoward has occurred.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Serious on March 12, 2011, 16:02:26 PM
Shut down? Think it is more blow up...

Huge blast at Japan nuclear power plant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 12, 2011, 16:05:15 PM
that explosion was one hell of a bang, I'm just hoping it really was the hydrogen explosion scenario outlined above or something similar, rather than my initial reaction which was "my god, they've ruptured the pressure vessel".

Assuming what they're saying about the PV being intact is correct, then hats off to the Jap engineers, that's one impressive piece of engineering.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 13, 2011, 17:40:39 PM
from msn page looks like they are still having issues controlling the power plant situation
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mardoni on March 13, 2011, 18:51:58 PM
Listening to BBC News, Reactor 3 is starting to have trouble and that's the one that could really spill some nasty crap out if it goes :s
They've accepted that they've lost the reactors and are pumping sea water in to try and cool them  :worried:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 13, 2011, 18:54:13 PM
Some of the "Experts" on the BBC are saying that this is a desperate measure, and we could be about to watch the next Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Serious on March 14, 2011, 00:37:48 AM
Things seems to be getting worse with every report rather than stabilising or getting better  :o :( :panic:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 14, 2011, 07:45:46 AM
Some of the "Experts" on the BBC are saying that this is a desperate measure, and we could be about to watch the next Chernobyl.

That's scaremongering, Chernobyl R4 was running out of control at ~500 times maximum power when it blew the top off the containment, mainly because the RBMK is the single most stupid nuclear reactor design ever used for commercial generation. The entire concrete pilecap weighing something like 100 tons was lifted into the air, flipped over and fell back onto the core. This smashed what was left of the graphite moderator stack and hurled fuel and graphite hundreds of meters from the core. The situation was made even worse by the graphite and fuel catching fire. The plume went high into the atmosphere and fallout spread across the world.

These Japanese reactors are fully shut down and have been for several days. Worst case, R3's containment gives way and you would then have some very nasty contamination in the local area, but there just isn't the potential for a Chernobyl level accident.

The yanks only think it's a desperate measure to pump sea water in because doing so will write off the reactors, but considering the alternative is a potential for meltdown, it's the correct thing to do.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 14, 2011, 08:13:31 AM
Yeah I know,  hence writing "Experts".

The fact that these reactors are about a million times better built than the Soviet ones tends to mean that unless something utterly catastrophic happens, we're unlikely to see another Chernobyl ever again.
The containment shell still being intact is testimony to the sheer build quality of these things.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 14, 2011, 09:24:19 AM
yeah I figured you were probably well aware.

Even back in the 50s and 60s, no non-soviet government would have licensed the RBMK on safety grounds, and even in spite of the stupid design and horrible lack of proper containment, Chernobyl R4 only blew up because the operators were performing an insane experiment and had specifically over-ridden most of the safety equipment which did exist.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 14, 2011, 09:44:12 AM
"What could possibly go wrong?"

I didn't realise though, that they were still running reactors at Chernobyl up to 2000.

What I don't like is that all the greenies are championing this as proof that Nuclear is unsafe.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 14, 2011, 09:53:48 AM
me either. Frankly, as long as the containments hold, this should be seen as a demonstration of exactly how safe these things are. They took the brunt of an event which has totaled entire towns and the worst thing that has happened is a little bit of slightly radioactive steam and the Tokyo Electric Company has lost the use of 2-3 of its oldest and most clapped out reactors. TBH the chemical plants which must have been hit by this wave will have done 1000s of times more environmental damage, probably more even than if the containments on all three reactors crack. After all, wildlife actually seems to rather like the Chernobyl "dead zone".



I had a feeling it was while I was working at BNFL in 01/02 that they shut the last Chernobyl reactor down but the Wiki page for the RBMK says you're right at 2000 so it must have been start of decommissioning that I remember. The more worrying thing is that the Kursk, Leningrad and Smolensk stations are all still operating RBMK's, albeit with safety modifications made since 1986. I am generally pro nuclear power, but I am very much anti-RBMK reactors, I'll be happy when they're all shut down.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 14, 2011, 13:19:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

Yikes, still no news on Skidzilla? :(
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 14, 2011, 13:39:11 PM
http://www.last.fm/user/skidzilla

skidzilla

skidzilla.googlepages.com/…Last seen: yesterday evening

Assumedly alive then  :)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 14, 2011, 13:40:37 PM

that's a pretty big explosion....

then skip ahead to about 4 min to see the water incoming....  :worried:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 14, 2011, 13:47:11 PM
http://www.last.fm/user/skidzilla

skidzilla

skidzilla.googlepages.com/…Last seen: yesterday evening

Assumedly alive then  :)

I was just about to post about that.

Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 14, 2011, 14:51:14 PM
1431: More from Japanese nuclear engineer Masashi Goto: He say that as the reactor uses mox (mixed oxide) fuel, the melting point is lower than that of conventional fuel. Should a meltdown and an explosion occur, he says, plutonium could be spread over an area up to twice as far as estimated for a conventional nuclear fuel explosion. The next 24 hours are critical, he says.

1426: Mr Goto says his greatest fear is that blasts at number 3 and number 1 reactors may have damaged the steel casing of the containment vessel designed to stop radioactive material escaping into the atmosphere. More to follow.

1422: Japanese engineer Masashi Goto, who helped design the containment vessel for Fukushima's reactor core, says the design was not enough to withstand earthquakes or tsunamis and the plant's builders, Toshiba, knew this. More on Mr Goto's remarks to follow.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 14, 2011, 23:17:02 PM
I think the third reactor's just gone.

edit.

2316: Kyodo now says that the suppression pool may have been damaged at the second reactor.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 14, 2011, 23:25:09 PM
I think the third reactor's just gone.

edit.

2316: Kyodo now says that the suppression pool may have been damaged at the second reactor.

Aye, not looking good, going to bed now but I have the feeling that there's going to be a lot of bad news when I wake up, missus' bro is supposed to be going to Japan this Thursday!
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 15, 2011, 07:48:43 AM
I don't like the look of the latest reports at all, third explosion and now radiation levels harmful to human health and a fire.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 15, 2011, 23:19:32 PM
seems to have settled down a bit now, last i heard at least 2 reactors were cooling with sea water and it was working ok
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 15, 2011, 23:39:59 PM
indeed, it's looking like the high rad levels earlier were from the fire in the cooling ponds of R4, although how a cooling pond full of water can catch fire is a bit of a mystery to me.

I'm still a bit concerned by R2, but the longer everything stays more or less under control the better the situation gets because the residual activity in the cores will be decaying all the time. It will be interesting (if we ever find out) to see how much melting actually took place in the 3 cores which are damaged. From the information we have, R2 spent a considerable time totally uncovered so I'd be quite surprised if it didn't have at least a partial meltdown. Thank God for ceramic fuel, if this was an older uranium metal design meltdown would have been much more serious.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: neXus on March 15, 2011, 23:49:38 PM
News this morning NZ time is that the levels are falling and it is cooling.
Seen about the cooling water can be on fire on TV before.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Bacon on March 16, 2011, 03:38:08 AM
Quote
0146 : Tepco says the reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been emitting white smoke for about 45 minutes, Kyodo News reports. The plant's reactor 4 was the one where a fire broke out earlier this morning

Quote
0221: Japanese Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says the authorities are still looking for the cause of white smoke billowing from reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. He says the radiation reading at the plant is fluctuating by the hour.

Quote
0236: Mr Edano, Japan's chief government spokesman, says workers trying to douse the reactors with water were forced to retreat when radiation levels surged there.

Quote
0320: Staff have now been evacuated from Fukushima because of a spike in radiation levels, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news conference.

It still doesn't look good. :(

More bad news as Snow has been confirmed in some areas, while people left homeless will face some harsh freezing weather conditions.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 16, 2011, 08:56:34 AM
There was a young man from Japan,who, once fell asleep in his van.He woke in the night, with a terrible fright.And found he was now in Taiwan.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 16, 2011, 15:19:39 PM
its all f**ked out there now. kaboom
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 16, 2011, 15:49:12 PM
the increasingly improvised methods of water injection concern me. I also find it most concerning that TEPCO brought up the possibility of unintentional criticality in the cooling ponds at R4. If they've brought it up, they think it could actually happen and a self sustaining fission reaction outside the containment vessel would be really bad. Probably still not Chernobyl bad, but at that point it would be demonstrably significantly worse than three mile island.

They need to get boric acid or some other neutron absorber into that cooling pond water, but presumably if they could do that easily they'd just have done it rather than mentioning that criticality was ever on the cards.

very worrying.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 16, 2011, 16:16:58 PM
the increasingly improvised methods of water injection concern me. I also find it most concerning that TEPCO brought up the possibility of unintentional criticality in the cooling ponds at R4. If they've brought it up, they think it could actually happen and a self sustaining fission reaction outside the containment vessel would be really bad. Probably still not Chernobyl bad, but at that point it would be demonstrably significantly worse than three mile island.

They need to get boric acid or some other neutron absorber into that cooling pond water, but presumably if they could do that easily they'd just have done it rather than mentioning that criticality was ever on the cards.

very worrying.
what they tell us today, probably happened 2 days ago.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 16, 2011, 16:26:16 PM
the increasingly improvised methods of water injection concern me. I also find it most concerning that TEPCO brought up the possibility of unintentional criticality in the cooling ponds at R4. If they've brought it up, they think it could actually happen and a self sustaining fission reaction outside the containment vessel would be really bad. Probably still not Chernobyl bad, but at that point it would be demonstrably significantly worse than three mile island.

They need to get boric acid or some other neutron absorber into that cooling pond water, but presumably if they could do that easily they'd just have done it rather than mentioning that criticality was ever on the cards.

very worrying.
what they tell us today, probably happened 2 days ago.

Have to agree, seems to be a whiff of deliberately holding back the facts :tinhat:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 16, 2011, 16:55:42 PM
the increasingly improvised methods of water injection concern me. I also find it most concerning that TEPCO brought up the possibility of unintentional criticality in the cooling ponds at R4. If they've brought it up, they think it could actually happen and a self sustaining fission reaction outside the containment vessel would be really bad. Probably still not Chernobyl bad, but at that point it would be demonstrably significantly worse than three mile island.

They need to get boric acid or some other neutron absorber into that cooling pond water, but presumably if they could do that easily they'd just have done it rather than mentioning that criticality was ever on the cards.

very worrying.
what they tell us today, probably happened 2 days ago.

Have to agree, seems to be a whiff of deliberately holding back the facts :tinhat:

I concur, which is why I find it particularly alarming that THEY brought up the criticality thing. If they have said, without prompting, that it's a possibility....... TBH the only reason I'm not saying it's already happened is that I'm reasonably sure we'd know about it if it had, the cooling ponds aren't designed to dissipate that kind of heat so my guesstimate is that a criticality event would boil the pond dry in a few minutes at most, at which point it would very quickly become a very large fire. The fission reaction would lose moderation and therefore probably stop as soon as the water boiled off, but molten fuel rods would then be a certainty and compromised fuel outside the reactor + fire...

like I said, they really need to get neutron absorbers in there, but apparently radiation has forced back the helicopters back so they're now going to try and use water-canon.

Up to this point I've been pretty relaxed about the whole situation. I am now genuinely concerned. 

Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: soopahfly on March 16, 2011, 19:21:04 PM
the increasingly improvised methods of water injection concern me. I also find it most concerning that TEPCO brought up the possibility of unintentional criticality in the cooling ponds at R4. If they've brought it up, they think it could actually happen and a self sustaining fission reaction outside the containment vessel would be really bad. Probably still not Chernobyl bad, but at that point it would be demonstrably significantly worse than three mile island.

They need to get boric acid or some other neutron absorber into that cooling pond water, but presumably if they could do that easily they'd just have done it rather than mentioning that criticality was ever on the cards.

very worrying.

One of them will soon go,
"I know, Rets Pee on it"
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on March 16, 2011, 23:01:34 PM
https://www.facebook.com/notes/international-atomic-energy-agency-iaea/japanese-earthquake-update-16-march-2200-utc/202327553130372

Temperature of Spent Fuel Pools at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant

 

Spent fuel that has been removed from a nuclear reactor generates intense heat and is typically stored in a water-filled spent fuel pool to cool it and provide protection from its radioactivity. Water in a spent fuel pool is continuously cooled to remove heat produced by spent fuel assemblies.  According to IAEA experts, a typical spent fuel pool temperature is kept below 25 ˚C under normal operating conditions. The temperature of a spent fuel pool is maintained by constant cooling, which requires a constant power source.

 

Given the intense heat and radiation that spent fuel assemblies can generate, spent fuel pools must be constantly checked for water level and temperature. If fuel is no longer covered by water or temperatures reach a boiling point, fuel can become exposed and create a risk of radioactive release. The concern about the spent fuel pools at Fukushima Daiichi is that sources of power to cool the pools may have been compromised.

 

The IAEA can confirm the following information regarding the temperatures of the spent nuclear fuel pools at Units 4, 5 and 6 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:

 

Unit 4

14 March, 10:08 UTC:  84 ˚C

15 March, 10:00 UTC:  84 ˚C

16 March, 05:00 UTC:  no data

 

Unit 5

14 March, 10:08 UTC:  59.7 ˚C

15 March, 10:00 UTC:  60.4 ˚C

16 March, 05:00 UTC:  62.7 ˚C

 

Unit 6

14 March, 10:08 UTC:  58.0 ˚C

15 March, 10:00 UTC:  58.5 ˚C

16 March, 05:00 UTC:  60.0 ˚C

 

The IAEA is continuing to seek further information about the water levels, temperature and condition of all spent fuel pool facilities at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: XEntity on March 16, 2011, 23:22:28 PM
Click for a bigger version...

Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 16, 2011, 23:34:17 PM
I have no idea.... but I assume the pools are deep enough so that as they start to overheat, water will evaporate cooling them off ?

I know the spent fuel pool at Hartlepool nuclear power station is pretty much jammed full of radioactive crap as a result of the miners strikes in the 80's
(all the nuke power stations had to run at more than 100% to make up for the loss of coal power stations, which apparently depletes the fuel ultra fast)

I'd assume.... worse case scenario is, they'll get firemen to pump sea water into the pools ?


as for the earlier bit about venting steam / the explosions etc...

the original steam apparently isn't radioactive at all - because it;s from pure distilled water

but the steam from the sea water is very slightly radioactive (half life of seconds apparently) because of the salt/crap in the water interacting with the fuel rods....
(they also mixed in some..... can;t remember what it's called but it's what the control rods are made out of.... the reactor is no good once the sea water hits it anyway, so they might as well finish it off)

when they vented the (radioactive) sea water steam, instead of venting it straight to the atmosphere they vented it into the containment building, held it there for a short while and then vented it to the atmosphere.... (it's only radioactive for a very short time, so by holding it, it's just normal steam by the time they release it)

they apparently knew that there was a chance it could split into hydrogen and oxygen inside the containment building (it can't split inside the reactor, can't remember why) but they decided to risk it.... it (apparently) doesn't make any difference that the containment buildings "exploded" the stuff inside is build to take it....   (the building's themselves didn't really explode... there were explosions inside knocking the roof etc.. off but not a lot more)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Serious on March 17, 2011, 00:32:14 AM
I thought these nuclear power stations were supposed to be 110% safe? They said the cooling rods drop in and that's it, full shut down.

Think some scientists have been talking a load of bull over the years.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 17, 2011, 02:09:50 AM
I guess as said before the control rods drop and the interaction between the fuel rods is stopped but the fuel rods themselves are so hot and they have elements constantly decaying inside them to keep heating them that without cooling they just melt.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: neXus on March 17, 2011, 07:23:56 AM
I thought these nuclear power stations were supposed to be 110% safe? They said the cooling rods drop in and that's it, full shut down.

Think some scientists have been talking a load of bull over the years.

You have one of the older plants and it first got hit buy a big ass earthquake and the rods dropped. Then you had a sh*t load of water hit the plant knackering the engines to sort the rods out again, and then you have things around the actual reactors blowing up and despite the sh*t that it is in it has not gone completely yet?

I would say that considering, its bad but it could have easily gone sooner if it was not mega safe.

*Heinsight? will be there now and I think Japan did well with the earthquake but did not expect the water so much.

You watch them though, you will have big ass tunnels made that will flip open to take the water in or something.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 17, 2011, 10:19:50 AM
I couldnt believe it when i saw some news saying that this was proving nuclear power was unsafe.. i mean.. wtf? 2 massive disasters both on a scale never recorded before, id say it was safer than we could have imagined, that plant running here in england would have had no issues at all in its life.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 17, 2011, 12:00:57 PM
One can build safe nuke plants but, mining uranium ore is not yet safe and to store used fuel has not yet any good solution i.e. copper will corrode after about 1000 years and that is not enough.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 17, 2011, 12:13:14 PM
I thought these nuclear power stations were supposed to be 110% safe? They said the cooling rods drop in and that's it, full shut down.

Think some scientists have been talking a load of bull over the years.

the public are treated like mushrooms.. kept in the dark & fed sh*t
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 17, 2011, 12:13:43 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 17, 2011, 12:22:07 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.

Building more new nukes will delay the development of renewable energy.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 17, 2011, 12:23:51 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.

Building more new nukes will delay the development of renewable energy.

Alternative is black out/brown out or burning through what little fossil fuel remains..
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 17, 2011, 12:38:58 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.

Building more new nukes will delay the development of renewable energy.

Building more new nukes with new technology will also make them safer and cleaner. If we shut them away and forget about them we'll never see any development of what is an important technology that could have tremendous benefits for the future.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Bacon on March 17, 2011, 13:06:27 PM
Quote
1111: The BBC's Tim Wilcox, in Tokyo, says that some people in the city are capitalising on the crisis. He spoke to one UK-born banker who lives in the city who said he was being quoted £1,500 ($2,400) to buy his own geiger counter.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 17, 2011, 13:35:45 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.

Building more new nukes will delay the development of renewable energy.

Alternative is black out/brown out or burning through what little fossil fuel remains..

I think we all need to help out by using less energy in our homes, I am changing my bulbs to LED ones (http://www.autemashop.com/category_LED_Klotlampor_3-8W.htm), one can improve insulation in ones house to lower energy used for heating and use timers etc. so lights etc. is not on when not needed. If everyone were careful with there own energy use where would be no need for more nukes.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: zpyder on March 17, 2011, 15:32:24 PM
It's bad but nuclear energy is kinda needed for the time being. It's not a light decision to make either. I find the nuclear legacy we'll leave behind fascinating though and recommend people who are interested read into the WIPP (Waste Isolation Pilot Plant), and the "Message for the future" which basically is all the planning going into trying to ensure that there are warnings that are understandable to mankind that will remain for 10000+ years on top of the nuclear waste sites...
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on March 17, 2011, 18:29:01 PM
The story of Yucca Mountain is worth reading if you're interested in the future of nuclear waste disposal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: neXus on March 17, 2011, 18:40:42 PM
Theres no doubt that waste is an issue but we are outta time and outta options, we need the nukes till renewable energy can take over.

Building more new nukes will delay the development of renewable energy.

Not true bear.
New Zealand is run mostly by renewable power plants 0 hydro mainly. Other countries too.
LOTS of technology progression on these things. Problem is it is all to expensive and companies do not adopt them. Business decisions and money and legal crap is what stopping it kicking off properly.

Other standard plants exploded and went nuts and were destroyed in the earthquake and the NP is still standing (just) and was hit worse.
Like I said, still dam good going, like Binary Shadow said.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 17, 2011, 19:05:40 PM
should go back to good old fashion coal.
The UK is built upon some of the best coal in the world.

Windfarms dont  work. Powerstations still need to be kept on for when theres no wind - or even a change in direction.
There is also a huge hidden tax we are paying because the goverment subsidised these farms.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8028328/Britains-offshore-windpower-costs-twice-as-much-as-coal-and-gas-generated-electricity.html
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: DEViANCE on March 17, 2011, 19:13:11 PM
France is seeing the benefit of Nuclear power I beleive.

Their nuclear stations generate more than they need and sell the rest for a fotune, alot of it to us.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 17, 2011, 19:30:18 PM
France is seeing the benefit of Nuclear power I beleive.

Their nuclear stations generate more than they need and sell the rest for a fotune, alot of it to us.

thats because we have wind farms, that dont produce enough electricity, have not replaced our old power stations
and instead buy from france.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Bacon on March 18, 2011, 07:29:51 AM
Seen on a video update this morning, it now seems the replacement power cables were not sorted in time, they are now asking for help from other countries.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 18, 2011, 09:54:41 AM
Given the scale of the problem and its potential to get real bad why couldn't they have just air lifted some generators in to power the coolant pumps? rather than trying to connect to the grid which is taking ages.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 18, 2011, 09:58:54 AM
I thought they had generators/diesel powered pumps but the problem was fuel? nevertheless I agree that would seem like a better use of the chinooks than the water bombing, airlift in some generators and/or fuel supplies and get the power going again.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Bacon on March 18, 2011, 13:05:09 PM
I thought they had generators/diesel powered pumps but the problem was fuel? nevertheless I agree that would seem like a better use of the chinooks than the water bombing, airlift in some generators and/or fuel supplies and get the power going again.

It is my understanding that the pumps were electrically powered and due to damaged power lines, they were on the case of getting replacement electrical lines sorted, i think the issue with using fuel powered generators is that there was a lack of fuel nationwide due to the petrolchemical plants being cut off due to the Tsunami and Earthquake, but i would suggest it was rather more important to power those generators.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 18, 2011, 13:22:41 PM
I was just reading up about 3 mile island.. it doesnt seem quite as serious as that at the moment.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 18, 2011, 14:21:33 PM
I'm not so sure, I think Fukushima is about even with TMI at the moment on the basis that it may or may not be quite as serious on a per-reactor basis, but 4 units are now involved with core meltdowns probable in 3 of them and a possible cooling pond meltdown at the 4th. It's still the cooling pond that scares me the most because it's open to atmosphere. If something goes wrong in there it's very bad, very quickly. Whoever decided the best place for the spent fuel cooling pond was the top floor of the reactor building needs their head examining
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 18, 2011, 14:38:19 PM
I thought they had generators/diesel powered pumps but the problem was fuel? nevertheless I agree that would seem like a better use of the chinooks than the water bombing, airlift in some generators and/or fuel supplies and get the power going again.

It is my understanding that the pumps were electrically powered and due to damaged power lines, they were on the case of getting replacement electrical lines sorted, i think the issue with using fuel powered generators is that there was a lack of fuel nationwide due to the petrolchemical plants being cut off due to the Tsunami and Earthquake, but i would suggest it was rather more important to power those generators.

The diesels started and ran for 1 hr but then stopped maybe because of the tsunami (I would think they have diesel for more than one hour in the tanks ? )
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 18, 2011, 14:44:58 PM
They have managed to get plasma in this plant for a few seconds, I hope there research will lead to good fusion plants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSTAR
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 19, 2011, 00:25:19 AM
The diesels started and ran for 1 hr but then stopped maybe because of the tsunami (I would think they have diesel for more than one hour in the tanks ? )

I'll go with sea water swamped the generators, water in the inlets, hydrolocking and killing the engines.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 19, 2011, 00:46:05 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html)

it wasn't sounding too bad before.... sounds like they haven't been giving out the hole story to the press so far...
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 19, 2011, 01:11:19 AM
oh of course.. the daily wail..
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 19, 2011, 02:58:25 AM
I know what you mean..... but it can;t be a good sign when the guy in charge of the plant cries like a little girl on the way out of a conference... :(
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 19, 2011, 09:11:17 AM
Quite a stressful job id say
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 19, 2011, 23:14:26 PM
BBC says they've found radioactive iodine in the tap water in Tokyo. That can't be good, though presumably in very small amounts or they'd really be panicing. This is definitely a level 5 now, it's Windscale fire level in many ways.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 20, 2011, 06:33:45 AM
A bit of history and more.

http://www.rense.com/general93/naga.htm
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2011, 18:13:08 PM
Why not just nuke the plant?  A small, tactical nuke would probably be less hassle in the long run.  :muttley:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: neXus on March 20, 2011, 22:08:06 PM
Why not just nuke the plant?  A small, tactical nuke would probably be less hassle in the long run.  :muttley:

They have power and the things to keep things cool are working so it is looking good now. Things look to be sorted.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 23, 2011, 06:38:13 AM
But I say do not build any more of them spend the money on developing Fusion plant, preferably cold fusion.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/17/nuclear-future-beyond-japan/
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 23, 2011, 09:02:39 AM
But I say do not build any more of them spend the money on developing Fusion plant, preferably cold fusion.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/17/nuclear-future-beyond-japan/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/17/nuclear-future-beyond-japan/)

If you want nuclear fusion then you're going to have to put up with fission stations for a while yet. Nothing to do with the science but for political and economical reasons, do you honestly believe that if you stop building fission plants right now that the public would allow the building of fusion power stations in the future? The second you tag the word "nuclear" onto anything it becomes mud and the media would create such a furore that the idea would be laughed out of parliament. If you stop building nuclear plants now and we have a gap before the first fusion plants come on-line then you will never see them; they simply won't be allowed. The discontinuation of nuclear power now will be heralded as a triumph by every "green" and "eco" minded person out there and the media will jump onto this bandwagon. The second people start talking about building fusion plants these arguments will be dusted off and used again. It would be political suicide for any party in power to even consider signing on the dotted line against the weight of so much public opinion so it would simply never happen.

You need more modern fission plants so we can gradually transition into fusion power in the future. Politically this is the only way it will ever happen. Common sense has to be considered secondary to public opinion and political will in these situations unfortunately.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 23, 2011, 09:09:56 AM
fusion is all very well and should be investigated to the fullest extent possible, but we're not going to see economically viable fusion power stations for at least 20 or 30 years yet, by which point we'll have a serious power shortage which renewables alone are not going to fill.

If we don't build more Nuclear stations, we will have to build fossil fuels instead to plug the gap.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 23, 2011, 10:53:20 AM
Indeed, fusion has been under development for how long now? and they still cant get a sustained reaction!
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 23, 2011, 11:13:13 AM
they're moving towards burning plasma states, I believe they will get there but the current timescale is ~2020 for ITER and 2033 for DEMO (which will be the first comercial scale fusion electricity generator). Bear in mind they haven't even designed DEMO yet because they can't until they know how well ITER works, I'll be surprised if it's even under construction by 2040. I hope I'll live to see a fusion plant running, but I'd bet against seeing it before I see my first pension cheque.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on March 23, 2011, 13:10:09 PM
An interesting article from a Guardian writer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/pro-nuclear-japan-fukushima (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/pro-nuclear-japan-fukushima)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 23, 2011, 14:50:33 PM
Fission plants makes sh*tloads of money as long as a lot of money is made the will to do something else is very low sometimes things have to be forced  to happen. It is all about money that is the problem in my mind. Also people need to learn to use less energy , there is so much stuff turned on that is not needed we can do with the plants we have if we stop being so gadget crazy. If the enormous profits made on selling power were used for science and research instead of lining the pockets of the already crazy rich corps we would have fusion and other good power sources much faster building more nukes delays rather than speed up. It is the same with oil powering cars, sh*tloads of money is made and even used to twart competing invention just to be able to continue to make sh*tloads of money.
Political and economic reasons yes but I believe that is wrong, won't change because the want to stay in power is
or the want to make sh*tloads of money is just beneficial for a few.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 23, 2011, 15:08:55 PM
http://pesn.com/2011/01/27/9501752_Italian_cold_fusion_saga_continues_with_new_papers_released/

http://pesn.com/2011/03/07/9501782_Cold_Fusion_Steams_Ahead_at_Worlds_Oldest_University/
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 23, 2011, 16:15:26 PM
it's not a question of fission stations speeding up or slowing down the development of fusion, it's about what we use to power our countries until fusion is ready to take over.

Even assuming we somehow managed to figure out tomorrow morning how to make a fusion power station, it would take years to build the first one and no-one is going to start building a second until they know the first one works.

Fusion on any scale (ie multiple plants generating multiple GW in multiple countries) might happen by the mid 21st century but we're going to have big energy shortages long before then if we build nothing.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 23, 2011, 16:29:49 PM
There is about 60 million people in the UK if every one reduces there power consumption with 100 watts that will be 6000 MW one nuke gives about
1000MW, educate people to use less power and there would be no need to build more nukes. I have changed 10 of my 60 watts bulbs to 6 watt LED:s which give the same light a reduction of 540 watts.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 23, 2011, 16:47:26 PM
Im sure like many households here in britain im burning my money by using more power than i need, hell I boil a kettle non stop because I can. Get real mate we have all cut as much as we can without ruining our quality of life.

EDIT: the population is continuing to increase, dwellings are being built non stop. the demand for electricity is going only one way.. UP!
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 23, 2011, 16:54:23 PM
There is about 60 million people in the UK if every one reduces there power consumption with 100 watts that will be 6000 MW one nuke gives about
1000MW, educate people to use less power and there would be no need to build more nukes. I have changed 10 of my 60 watts bulbs to 6 watt LED:s which give the same light a reduction of 540 watts.

and just going down the Wikipedia list of power stations in the UK and adding up the capacities scheduled to close soon, by the end of 2015 this country will have lost 16074MW of generating capacity.

Of course educating people about being energy conscious is worthwhile, but you're not going to cover the reductions in capacity over the next few years without building something. 
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: DEViANCE on March 23, 2011, 16:56:46 PM
There is about 60 million people in the UK if every one reduces there power consumption with 100 watts that will be 6000 MW one nuke gives about
1000MW, educate people to use less power and there would be no need to build more nukes. I have changed 10 of my 60 watts bulbs to 6 watt LED:s which give the same light a reduction of 540 watts.

And what difference will that 540W make to anything? Your local power station willstill be running at the same capacity, electricity cant be stored so if what is generated is not used it is wasted.

Powerstations waste 10000,s of Watts everyday by running huge motors and discharging/recharging capcitors that are not connected to anything just to keep the load balanced.

People that say switching off at the plug and fitting low energy lamps makes any difference doesn't have a clue how the system works.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on March 23, 2011, 17:00:00 PM
EDIT: the population is continuing to increase, dwellings are being built non stop. the demand for electricity is going only one way.. UP!

Sadly even with all the education on energy consumption in the world this is the case, our rate of global growth and demand for power far exceeds production and any potential savings we could make.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 23, 2011, 18:15:32 PM
There is about 60 million people in the UK if every one reduces there power consumption with 100 watts that will be 6000 MW one nuke gives about
1000MW, educate people to use less power and there would be no need to build more nukes. I have changed 10 of my 60 watts bulbs to 6 watt LED:s which give the same light a reduction of 540 watts.

And what difference will that 540W make to anything? Your local power station willstill be running at the same capacity, electricity cant be stored so if what is generated is not used it is wasted.
540 watts makes a huge difference if 60 million people save as much. As long power companies make huge profits on fission they have no interest in developing safer power.

Powerstations waste 10000,s of Watts everyday by running huge motors and discharging/recharging capcitors that are not connected to anything just to keep the load balanced.

People that say switching off at the plug and fitting low energy lamps makes any difference doesn't have a clue how the system works.

It has much to do with the will to do stuff. You can store power in Russia they pump water up in damms when power draw is low to use when power draw is high. There osmotic "pumps" that can use the difference between salt and sweet water to "pump" up water to useable hight I say
that it is possible to find ways to make energy without nukes. This happy go lucky attitude towards fission reactors does not help at all though.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 23, 2011, 18:49:39 PM
there are two pump storage power stations in north wales, not sure if there are any elsewhere in the UK. They're great for load balancing if you've got the space but the power density is low and they are net users of electricity.

If you want base load generating capacity in the GW range, you currently have 4 options

1. Coal - dirty as hell
2. Gas - price fluctuates wildly and as resources deplete it becomes more environmentally damaging to extract
3. Oil - similar problems to Gas, plus dirtier.
4. Nuclear fission - produces radioactive waste, plants are hard to decommission

you can make good arguments in all directions for which of these is least bad, but to argue that we can currently make do without any of them is simply not accurate. In reality, a sensible energy policy includes a variety of fuel types. Gas for example can be spooled up really fast, making it handy for peak load use. Nuclear and Coal are a pain to start up and shut down, so should only be used for base load.

Energy policy is extremely complex.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 23, 2011, 19:36:54 PM
1. Coal - dirty as hell

nowhere near as dirty as the used to be. Washed coal/clean coal have a very low sulphur rate, thats without the various carbon filters, etc. that we have these days.
 + the whole UK is sitting on billions of the stuff. China are opening a new coal power plant every week, so why should we have to suffer the green issue when there is a
country 20 times the population of ours accelerating through rapid development that took our country the best part of 150 years.

Our coal is still being mined, what dont get burned here gets transported & burned in china. Its getting burned anyway!!!!!!!!!
Thats
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: DEViANCE on March 23, 2011, 19:58:21 PM
Micro generation should be being pushed on housing developers imo.

A house can be heated for almost nothing through ground source heating and/or solar heating and Solar PV cells can almost permenatly supply a house.

If develeopers HAD to make 10% of all new houses with these it would be a good step.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 23, 2011, 20:09:36 PM
Micro generation should be being pushed on housing developers imo.

A house can be heated for almost nothing through ground source heating and/or solar heating and Solar PV cells can almost permenatly supply a house.

If develeopers HAD to make 10% of all new houses with these it would be a good step.

Thats all well and good but the square footage of area for ground source is fairly high, and neither of those helps the massive number of blocks of flats, you could never generate enough power with the space you have to run all those people
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: DEViANCE on March 23, 2011, 20:11:19 PM
Micro generation should be being pushed on housing developers imo.

A house can be heated for almost nothing through ground source heating and/or solar heating and Solar PV cells can almost permenatly supply a house.

If develeopers HAD to make 10% of all new houses with these it would be a good step.

Thats all well and good but the square footage of area for ground source is fairly high, and neither of those helps the massive number of blocks of flats, you could never generate enough power with the space you have to run all those people

ground source can be done with 2 deep bore holes which take up about 1ft*2ft I've worked on it before.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on March 23, 2011, 20:15:41 PM
assuming you can go down far enough some systems just run loads of pipe only a few feet below the surface
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: DEViANCE on March 23, 2011, 20:18:30 PM
assuming you can go down far enough some systems just run loads of pipe only a few feet below the surface

yeah I've seen them, you do need alot of space for those.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 24, 2011, 02:02:37 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/22/real_estate/doomsday_bunkers/index.htm
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 25, 2011, 13:10:23 PM
http://xkcd.com/radiation/ (http://xkcd.com/radiation/)

that's quite an interesting chart :-)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Bacon on March 25, 2011, 15:17:35 PM
http://xkcd.com/radiation/ (http://xkcd.com/radiation/)

that's quite an interesting chart :-)

Saw that the other day, won't be eating Banana's anymore :P
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 25, 2011, 21:30:29 PM
missed the posts above.... ground source heat pumps are only and good when it's mild.... in a cold winter you need something else as a backup (like gas or oil)

but a couple of solar panels on the roof can give you all the hot water you need for 9 months of the year :)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Serious on March 27, 2011, 05:41:54 AM

If you want base load generating capacity in the GW range, you currently have 4 options

1. Coal - dirty as hell
2. Gas - price fluctuates wildly and as resources deplete it becomes more environmentally damaging to extract
3. Oil - similar problems to Gas, plus dirtier.
4. Nuclear fission - produces radioactive waste, plants are hard to decommission

you can make good arguments in all directions for which of these is least bad, but to argue that we can currently make do without any of them is simply not accurate. In reality, a sensible energy policy includes a variety of fuel types. Gas for example can be spooled up really fast, making it handy for peak load use. Nuclear and Coal are a pain to start up and shut down, so should only be used for base load.

Energy policy is extremely complex.

You don't include Solar, tideal, wave, oceanic current, wind or other similar generation method. There is already over 5000MW of wind turbine electricity generating plant in the UK with a lot more planned.

OK, some idiots think that turbines are an eyesore, offer them a nuke plant as an alternative...  :w00t: :ptu:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 27, 2011, 09:46:01 AM
You don't include Solar, tideal, wave, oceanic current, wind or other similar generation method. There is already over 5000MW of wind turbine electricity generating plant in the UK with a lot more planned.

OK, some idiots think that turbines are an eyesore, offer them a nuke plant as an alternative...  :w00t: :ptu:
Windpower & wave costs twice the amount of money to generate power than nuclear, gas or coal. - About 1/2 of the extra associated with the wind extra cost is down to the fact that wind is unreliable so they have to keep other power stations running but at a reduced capacity. Tidal/Wave would be the best, but its still expensive atm - would you be prepared to pay double what your paying now for electric? As for solar, your stuck to things you cant control. Day/Night cycle & the weather. They would also need to point a certain direction to get the best from. Even then a footprint size of a normal house would not produce enough electricity to run a house of the same footprint size.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Quixoticish on March 27, 2011, 10:14:17 AM

If you want base load generating capacity in the GW range, you currently have 4 options

1. Coal - dirty as hell
2. Gas - price fluctuates wildly and as resources deplete it becomes more environmentally damaging to extract
3. Oil - similar problems to Gas, plus dirtier.
4. Nuclear fission - produces radioactive waste, plants are hard to decommission

you can make good arguments in all directions for which of these is least bad, but to argue that we can currently make do without any of them is simply not accurate. In reality, a sensible energy policy includes a variety of fuel types. Gas for example can be spooled up really fast, making it handy for peak load use. Nuclear and Coal are a pain to start up and shut down, so should only be used for base load.

Energy policy is extremely complex.

You don't include Solar, tideal, wave, oceanic current, wind or other similar generation method. There is already over 5000MW of wind turbine electricity generating plant in the UK with a lot more planned.

OK, some idiots think that turbines are an eyesore, offer them a nuke plant as an alternative...  :w00t: :ptu:

Some idiots think that you can equate one wind farm to one nuclear power station. You can build a small number of nuclear power stations and tuck them out of the way, whilst we would have to plaster half of the countryside with wind farms. That's a completely bullsh*t analogy and you know it.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Serious on March 27, 2011, 15:58:01 PM
That's a completely bullsh*t analogy and you know it.

Anyone who claims bullsh*t invariably hasn't checked up on their 'facts'.

Largest ones now installed can supply 3MW and designs for 10MW versions are in progress. These are estimated to produce minimum 30% of their maximum output spread over any year.

The land area you are talking about was a complete fabrication, Modern turbines are much bigger than the tiny ones that were available when that myth started. As you rack up the size the area needed drops drastically meaning you only need thousands. Most will be put up out to sea, not affecting land at all.

Note, I'm not saying they are anywhere near a complete answer, but, they are definitely part of the answer. Chances are we won't have a complete answer until fusion is sorted out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom

Japan still not in the clear. I think they were right when they named it Fuk-u-shima. Americans still seem to be recommending a 80KM evacuation area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12875327
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: knighty on March 27, 2011, 23:01:54 PM
the idea is, by the time we have enough wind/hydro/wave/solar power.... they should be finished the super high voltage DC like around the uk they've been planning for years... they'll have a similar system around the rest of Europe.... (and to Africa for lots of solar in the desert)

once all that is sorted... it's not a big deal if we don't make enough power for ourselves... it should even out over all of Europe and we'll be ok
still need power stations etc... but it's a step in the right direction....
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eagle on March 28, 2011, 02:42:47 AM
Americans still seem to be recommending a 80KM evacuation area.
...says the Country that still hasn't sorted the Bhopal disaster...
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on March 28, 2011, 10:11:15 AM

If you want base load generating capacity in the GW range, you currently have 4 options

1. Coal - dirty as hell
2. Gas - price fluctuates wildly and as resources deplete it becomes more environmentally damaging to extract
3. Oil - similar problems to Gas, plus dirtier.
4. Nuclear fission - produces radioactive waste, plants are hard to decommission

you can make good arguments in all directions for which of these is least bad, but to argue that we can currently make do without any of them is simply not accurate. In reality, a sensible energy policy includes a variety of fuel types. Gas for example can be spooled up really fast, making it handy for peak load use. Nuclear and Coal are a pain to start up and shut down, so should only be used for base load.

Energy policy is extremely complex.

You don't include Solar, tideal, wave, oceanic current, wind or other similar generation method. There is already over 5000MW of wind turbine electricity generating plant in the UK with a lot more planned.

OK, some idiots think that turbines are an eyesore, offer them a nuke plant as an alternative...  :w00t: :ptu:

no I didn't, because I was talking about GW class production of reliable base load electricity.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on March 28, 2011, 11:29:49 AM
That's a completely bullsh*t analogy and you know it.


Largest ones now installed can supply 3MW and designs for 10MW versions are in progress. These are estimated to produce minimum 30% of their maximum output spread over any year.



so basically are providing 1mw a year on average.. not much point in them then
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: bear on March 31, 2011, 19:33:24 PM
It still has much to do with the will to do stuff as it is possible  within 25 years to go fully solar/wind.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/31/all-of-humanity-could-shift-to-solar-wind-energy-in-less-than-25-years-policy-study-group-claims/
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Eggtastico on April 07, 2011, 15:59:06 PM
another has hit.. tsunami warning for north east
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: matt5cott on April 07, 2011, 20:38:32 PM
Missus' brother is in the air to Japan as I type this, :roll:
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on April 13, 2011, 10:18:58 AM
So Fukushima is now INES 7. That means it's officially at least 10 times worse than the Kyshtym disaster and 100 times worse than 3 mile island or the Windscale Fire.

Anyone else feel like someone hasn't mentioned something important?
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on April 13, 2011, 11:46:20 AM
Err its not

They are basing that in some yardstick that is a complete load of pap by the sound of it, they have basically said that its a 7 assuming they cant seal it any time soon.. or ever. Its still not even close to being as bad as Chernobyl as far as i can tell.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on April 13, 2011, 13:06:16 PM
I'm really not clear why they would want to classify it level 7 if they could possibly get away with not doing so, given that up to now the only events to exceed level 5 were both Soviet ****-ups.

The news yesterday was talking about overall release of material ~10% that of Chernobyl. On the basis of material released that should therefore make Fukushima INES 6. Of course the criteria by which INES works are fuzzy at best, but up to now I haven't heard anything that suggests to me a level above 5/6 at worst.

If they are saying 7, they are either fools of the highest order or they know something which they aren't mentioning.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on April 13, 2011, 16:48:15 PM
having done a little reading it seems the basic issue is that level 7 is actually totally inadiquate to describe Chernobyl. It's not so much that Fukushima should be a 6 as Chernobyl should be an 8.

They're calling Fukushima a 7 on the basis of radioactive release, and by that measure it certainly is a 7, but I would still argue that by consequences it's still more like previous level 5/6 accidents. Perhaps that just goes to show what the difference is when you handle an event somewhere close to properly rather than the Soviet approach of pretend it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on April 13, 2011, 22:48:19 PM
The scale they use seems a total joke tbh
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on April 13, 2011, 23:12:10 PM
agreed, you can't really describe something as varied as a nuclear incident with a single number. I wouldn't be surprised to see the scale overhauled after this, even if only to stop people going on about how it's a 7 so it must be as bad as Chernobyl.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on April 14, 2011, 19:35:17 PM
I just had to post this

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=157026980&_p=833cf70e-7435-45cb-9374-9f6baacd0eb6#uc2Lst833cf70e-7435-45cb-9374-9f6baacd0eb6

Seems nuclear power is totally unnecessary !


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Mongoose on April 14, 2011, 19:42:57 PM
Actually I think we might be able to use this, if we can find the place where Nicolai Tesla is buried.

If we connect a generator to his spinning corpse, that's got to be good for a few gigawatts.


It's almost as reliable as Godwins Law, if someone mentions Nicolai Tesla on the internet, they're almost certainly about to say something dumb.
Title: Re: Japanese earthquake
Post by: Binary Shadow on April 14, 2011, 20:47:50 PM
LOL that same comments section has someone saying that scientific proof is being found supporting reincarnation.. seriously?  :rofl:

Seems to be a lot of consipricy theorists around...