Or at least MikeM seems to think so in the replies to this article... clicky

John seems to think otherwise, so do I...

I dunno, surely its down to the definition of fact. He seems to basically be saying statistics are inarguable, so might be getting confused, but sometimes statistics can be facts too?

About the only way statistical type figures could be argued would be to question the accuracy of the measurements, such as saying this cube has a volume of xx, there is no definite way of proving whether the measurements taken to calculate the volume are 100% accurate...?

Old saying, there are three types of lies, lies, damn lies and statistics. Statistics are entirely open to interpretation and spin. You could make them look like almost anything you want. Its always best to regard statistics is an indicators, not as facts. Then theres the fact that 90% of statistics are made up on the spot.

As to your cube, the volume of a vessel or object is pretty much a fact.  Its more interesting when you come to a glass though.

This hypothetical one can contain 100CC of water, and I put 50CC in, is it half full or half empty? Both would be true but usually people will only state one. I take the glass and break it. Does it have that capacity any more?

Most facts are transient, they depend on circumstances continuing in order to be true. Theres also the mistake that belief constitutes fact, it doesnt.

Fact can only really be regarded as such if they have been observed and measured, as any scientist worth his salt would tell you. Even then, if something changes that a fact depends on, it may no longer be true.

Yeah, but thats what I was meaning? The guy in question I think is just thinking in terms of facts as being definite values. Fair enough if you have a glass that is "half full" or "half empty", either is a fact that is true, you could also say that the glass is at 50% volume. And yes you could break it and bring up a whole other nest of issues, but from his viewpoint of that glass on the table with x amount of fluid, that figure is set for that period of time. What happens to it after is just speculation.

Also, any scientist worth his salt would say nothing can be proven, only disproved.

Its weird, I agree with both sides of this argument, but it just depends on the scale of the fact. That Occams razor scenario of the simplest solution being the correct kinda comes to mind. Any general fact could be argued against, but as you break it down and simplify it, it gets more difficult. IE:

If it is raining, you will get wet.
- well, you could be indoors, or wearing waterproofs

If it is raining and you are outdoors, naked, you will get wet
- But what if you are under shelter outdoors...

If it is raining and you are completely exposed and naked, you will get wet
- Pretty hard to come up with a null hypothesis, im sure one exists, but at some point it should get to a stage where the probability of the null being true is so negligable, that you could argue that its inarguable.

Ok, now Im just arguing with myself for the sake of it  :0hnoes:  

You havent specified *WHERE* it is raining! It could be raining down the street, on another continent, SATURN?

I would argue that some things can be proven, motion energy into heat, for instance. The laws of thermodynamics. Most mathematics, although there is even some issues with this which cant ever be solved. Lots of other things too. Ask scientists and these would be facts, same as chemical reactions.

And facts are definite values, they are just not permanent values.

The only fact that actually is inarguable :

BEER ROCKS

any measured result is meaningless unless it is accompanied by error bars.

Which is larger, a glass holding 100CC, or one holding 110CC? easy

but if its 100 +- 10 CC and 110 +- 10CC, you have no way to know which is larger without designing a better method of measuring.


In that vein, Beer Rocks +- one tenth of a Rocking Unit.

Quote from: White GiantThe only fact that actually is inarguable :

BEER ROCKS

Except for Yankee budweiser... but is that really beer?  

indeed, we really need a well specified deffinition of the term "Beer"

Seems Ive got a few bottles... /goes to investigate the issue