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Chat => General Discussion => Topic started by: matt5cott on August 25, 2007, 12:37:23 PM

Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 25, 2007, 12:37:23 PM
No doubt someone like Sam can answer these queries in his sleep, I am sure many others of you can help too.

1

Yesterday morning I ordered a 360 bundle from a well known high street retailer online for £30, the bundle was for a 360, and 2 games.

This morning I have recieved the 2 games sans 360, am I correct in thinking I can rightly ask where my console is?

I can only assume the money has been taken from my card, its not showing up on my bank account just yet, but these things take a couple of days usually.

Afaik theres now a contract with them having sent the goods out, and (assumedly, will clarify asap) charging my card.

------------

2

Later that morning I felt a bit fruity, so ordered another one of the other 360 bundles, this was for one game, with the console, I bought this for £10. I wanted it to get shipped and out of there asap so I put next day delivery on for £4.95, then used £12.50 of my reward points the total of the order came to £2.45, now I have had an email from said company acknowledging that this order is due to a misprint on the website, and as a token of goodwill they are willing to offer me the game on its own (bioshock) for £10. However checking my credit card it would appear that £2.45 is missing from my credit limit, so it would appear that theres a good chance that in the next couple of days £2.45 is going to be taken from it.

Furthermore the chap who emailed about this said I have until 5pm on Tuesday to take advantage of this goodwill gesture now then, is it really a goodwill gesture, or have I got him by the short and curlies and he knows it?
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Sam on August 25, 2007, 13:49:42 PM
1. Of course you can ask where your console is. And they cant fob you off on the courier, your contract is with the company and them alone.

2. Two points here. Firstly, you have no legal right to the item if it is an obvious error which a x360 for £15 or whatever is. Secondly, youre taking the piss. So forget about getting the console. This point has been tested in court before by Argos I think?
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Serious on August 25, 2007, 18:59:23 PM
Forget it, at that price its an obvious mistake.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 26, 2007, 11:10:12 AM
Cheers for your input Sam, I knew you would have a better idea than most :)

I got the email reciept from Game on Saturday, yet it was dated as Friday, I have indeed been charged £30 and have recieved Bioshock and Flatout through the post for the above price. However when I was ordering it did clearly say that it was an xbox 360 CONSOLE bundle (have screenies etc) and now as far as I am concerned surely Game have entered into a contract and failed to supply?
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: knighty on August 26, 2007, 11:17:39 AM
the problem is, therell be some small print somewhere when you were ordering protecting them from this sort of thing :o
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Eggtastico on August 26, 2007, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: Sam1. Of course you can ask where your console is. And they cant fob you off on the courier, your contract is with the company and them alone.

2. Two points here. Firstly, you have no legal right to the item if it is an obvious error which a x360 for £15 or whatever is. Secondly, youre taking the piss. So forget about getting the console. This point has been tested in court before by Argos I think?

point 2

IF they debited his card, then that is a completed transaction isnt it?
You cant sell somthing to someone in a shop & then chase them out the door saying it was the wrong price after the transaction has completed
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Serious on August 26, 2007, 14:07:43 PM
Except in this case its done by a machine, which is to all intents and purposes a stupid moron anyway, so there is no way of checking before your card is debited. TBH they should have refunded the money and given the option of the games at the price.

Sam is right on this item.
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Sam on August 26, 2007, 15:40:05 PM
Look Im not just guessing. It doesnt matter if theyve debited his card or not. The law is clear, if its an obvious error, like £2 instead of £200 then they do not have to supply. This has been tested in court before and the company won.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 28, 2007, 10:30:02 AM
Thanks everyone :)
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: dogbert on August 29, 2007, 16:20:08 PM
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact
08454 040506

Matt, you have a case here, do not drop it!

Ive just shown this thread to my wife who is a Trading Standards officer;

Firstly, sam your talking b@ll@cks...the obvious fault thing youre talking about is for the goods proper. I.e. buying a car with a broken window and then asking for compensation to fix it, it was an obvious fault and you have no reclaim.

Matt call consumer direct, they will want more details but if youre correct then Game dont have a leg to stand on as they have tendered for trade and accepted your contract. Your case is seems strong to me as they have already taken your money for the goods offered.

The fact they contacted you at a later time about a subsequent purchase is not related, it simply shows theyd found the error but they have to honour the original contract.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 29, 2007, 16:32:54 PM
interesting points dogbert, I thought that, until I read in games own T&Cs that you accept when ordering it says

1.3 We will not be legally bound by any factual or typographical errors on the website or other promotional materials.


Slams the door shut?

Full T&Cs are here anyway,

http://www.game.co.uk/help/TandC.aspx

P.S

1.1 A contract for the sale of product(s) you order from us is only created once we have e-mailed you confirmation that your order has been despatched, this is when we will charge your card.

Only applies to Case 1 as I did get this confirmation, Case 2 had no such email and I got mailed about this from Game saying its a mistake, do you want bioshock for a tenner as a goodwill gesture. In Case 1 they have fully charged my card also for the £30.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Vini on August 29, 2007, 16:35:04 PM
In every one of these misprice stories you always get one have-a-go hero, willing to take it to the very top. Go for it, dont be suprised when you get nowhere though.

Never, okay - once, has anyone got anywhere!

Kodak is the only one I can remember that actually came up trumps.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 29, 2007, 16:37:21 PM
Quote from: ViniIn every one of these misprice stories you always get one have-a-go hero, willing to take it to the very top. Go for it, dont be suprised when you get nowhere though.

Never, okay - once, has anyone got anywhere!

Kodak is the only one I can remember that actually came up trumps.

Well I still have bioshock tin edition and flatout for £30 delivered, with the addition of another copy of bioshock for £10 so even if it stalls and goes nowhere im not complaining :)
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: shofty on August 29, 2007, 16:41:41 PM
ill give you a tenner for that second copy of bioshock ;)

Matt
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: mrt on August 29, 2007, 17:00:09 PM
Quote from: bytejunkieill give you a tenner for that second copy of bioshock ;)

Matt

Here come the buzzards!  :D
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: dogbert on August 29, 2007, 17:09:27 PM
Quote from: matt5cottinteresting points dogbert, I thought that, until I read in games own T&Cs that you accept when ordering it says

1.3 We will not be legally bound by any factual or typographical errors on the website or other promotional materials.


Slams the door shut?

Not neccesarilly (spelling is crap I know...) they [Game] cant enforce a law for themselves that contravenes(?) UK law. But again Id say get the word from Consumer direct, its a free service to the public and will clear up the point once and for all wether Games T&C are legit or if you have a point to proceed on?
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: shofty on August 30, 2007, 09:17:58 AM
Quote from: mrt
Quote from: bytejunkieill give you a tenner for that second copy of bioshock ;)

Matt

Here come the buzzards!  :D

calm down fella, Ive got hair so i must be a vulture! ;)

have i got that completely the wrong way round?

either way, if that game goes into for sale section, Im racing you all for it!

Matt
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 30, 2007, 10:03:40 AM
Roit, I have mailed the consumer boys!
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Sam on August 30, 2007, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: dogberthttp://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

Firstly, sam your talking b@ll@cks..

The bollocks is coming from you. I used to own a shop and people tried it on many a time. I told them to fo every time.

PS. We used to laugh at trading standards. They have zero powers.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Beaker on August 30, 2007, 11:06:10 AM
I believe the calrifications are that once your card has actually been billed (Not just authorised) then the title of goods passes over you you. At that point there is nothing they can do.  However if they have authorised but not billed then they are well within their rights to say you cant have stuff.  An invitation to treat for goods isnt a contract of sale, and offering goods at a price doesnt bind you to sell them at that price.  

A few years back companies used to take the orders and bill striaght away, that meant they had no comeback at all.  They had debited the funds from your account/card so the good were yours at that point.  These days they dont tend to bill until the good are being dispatched, or in some cases ive noticed until upto a week afterwards.  Until they have actually billed the card its arguable who owns the products.  The person with them, or the company that sent them out.  

Basically, if they had stuck the 360 in the post and billed your card at that point for £30 then its yours.  If they sent out the game for £30 and billed your card then you own the game.  Argos are the highest profile online retailer to take this to court, and they won.  Provided they dont send the mispriced item out of the warehouse they are on safe ground.  
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on August 30, 2007, 13:09:12 PM
I remember numerous times muppets kicking off in/at Tekheads thinking that Trading Standards would supply them with a moon on a stick courtesy of Tekheads. Theyd often march off saying "Im calling trading standards" and that would be the last youd hear from them. Trading Standards are useless, and they certainly cant enforce these ludicrous contracts of sale.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Beaker on August 30, 2007, 13:49:52 PM
Quote from: Clockd 0NeI remember numerous times muppets kicking off in/at Tekheads thinking that Trading Standards would supply them with a moon on a stick courtesy of Tekheads. Theyd often march off saying "Im calling trading standards" and that would be the last youd hear from them. Trading Standards are useless, and they certainly cant enforce these ludicrous contracts of sale.

a contract of sale is protected undder the sale of good act, once payment for an item has been taken then the contract is concluded, and the title of good transfers over.  it is an actual contract, and is recognised in law as such.  The trick to avoid any problems is not to bill the customer until the goods are picked, packed and checked.  At that point you remove all chance of the wrong stuff being sent out at the wrong price.  Trading standards can advise on the correct course of action, and if they feel that the case merits it they can pass the detials onto the relevant government body if the occasion demands it.

That said, if they really want to cover their arses they can use the 7 day rule and say bollocks to the customer anyway.  
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Sam on August 30, 2007, 17:15:19 PM
Nige, let these people think trading standards or superman is gonna save them. If they dont want to listen to the voice of reason then let them think they are getting a 50" plasmas for 40 pence.
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Beaker on August 31, 2007, 12:06:01 PM
Quote from: SamNige, let these people think trading standards or superman is gonna save them. If they dont want to listen to the voice of reason then let them think they are getting a 50" plasmas for 40 pence.

If you go into a shop and they have a TV up for £20, you pay the £20 and carry it away then there is nothing the shop can do once they have taken payment.  At the point the fee has been agreed, and payment taken then the title of good passes over to the customer.  This point has been argued in courts, IIRC the actual case law was established in the 1860s (im somewhat rusty on dates as it was ~3 years since i did law).  The same laws apply to distance selling, but there are now some provisions.  GAME are on a sticky point by sending out just the game though.  They should have sent nothing at all and said that there was a mistake.  
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: matt5cott on August 31, 2007, 12:22:58 PM
Here what they said :)

Dear Mr Scott

Thank you for your enquiry to Consumer Direct dated 30/08/2007.  Your
reference number for this case is EM-CC-00198416 and should be quoted
 in
all further correspondence regarding this case.

Under UK law, you would be unable to make the trader supply the goods
you have ordered.
When we order goods over a distance, the law generally treats the
contract as being concluded when the goods arrive.
Until this point either party can withdraw from the contract despite
payment having been made.
Therefore if the trader have recognised their mistake prior to sending
you the goods, they would be within their rights to not dispatch them.
In this case, as the trader supplied you with a receipt stating that
only the games had been ordered, this would be seen as notification
 that
they were not supplying the console.
We can only suggest that you write to the trader on a customer service
issue, but do bear in mind that they would not be legally obliged to do
anything for you.
You would be entitled to return the games (unopened) to the trader for
a full refund under the Consumer Protection Distance Selling
Regulations, which grant you a 7 day cooling off period in which you
 can
return goods to the trader should you not wish to keep them. The trader
would be entitled to charge postage for this return.

If you require any further advice or information about this case,
please do not hesitate to contact Consumer Direct on 08454 04 05 06
quoting the case reference number. Please do not respond to this email
as the Consumer Direct inbox is not monitored and your response will
 not
be replied to.


Thank you for your enquiry.

xxxx

Consumer Direct East Midlands
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Serious on August 31, 2007, 19:49:30 PM
Seems *some people* = pwned by Sam - again! :rofl:

Not that I didnt try and warn them... :P
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on August 31, 2007, 20:30:41 PM
Quote from: BeakerIf you go into a shop and they have a TV up for £20, you pay the £20 and carry it away then there is nothing the shop can do once they have taken payment.

Point is this isnt walking into a shop and buying it; in which case if the till assistant lets them walk off after paying so little they deserve to be sacked. Of course they are not going to chase you down the road and demand their TV back for your £20.

This is people ordering online, there is a world of difference. Trading Standards are not there to bully companies into giving out idiot prizes to people.

Anyone that thinks simply because they clicked the Checkout button that they the company is legally bound to them is sorely mistaken, and it tends to be the same people every time rearing their heads with consumer rights every time this comes up.
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Beaker on August 31, 2007, 21:16:03 PM
Quote from: Clockd 0NeAnyone that thinks simply because they clicked the Checkout button that they the company is legally bound to them is sorely mistaken, and it tends to be the same people every time rearing their heads with consumer rights every time this comes up.

If i click the checkout button and the price is stupid then I just hope whatever it is arrives.  If it doesnt I shrug my shoulders and hope it comes through next time.  The way it was explained to me by my old Lecturer was that if they have shipped it and billed you, they cant then change the price and bill you more, or ask for it back.  They can refuse to supply, or they can supply an alternate if you are willing to accept one.  I know perfectly well that a price on an item isnt fixed, its simply an invitation to treat.  
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Serious on August 31, 2007, 23:47:56 PM
Once its out the door its a bit more difficult for them to recall it, although there are some companies that would...
Title: Sale of goods questions.
Post by: Sam on September 01, 2007, 06:32:31 AM
Amazingly I was right. Surprises me that does.

When you go into a shop, they are not obligued to sell a price on the shelf either, contrary to popular  belief.
Once youve left the shop tho yes you havae the goods.
Title: Re:Sale of goods questions.
Post by: White Giant on September 01, 2007, 09:36:12 AM
Yeah I used to get people shouting about false advertising when I worked in pubs, not illegal just bad for your reputation.