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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4845260.stm

No more smoking in enclosed public places north of the border and a message from me to Scottish smokers - tough!  :mrgreen:

Bah! *Liam goes outside and sparks up a b&h!  :D

when is it coming into effect everywhere else?

Great, now i just need to go to scotland

my local has got a nice canvas awning covering the beer garden, and patio heaters blowing air set up already for the smoking ban.  They also have a large sign says "Smoking Area This Way" then subtitleunderneath it "dont moan if you are a non-smoker".  I love biker pubs  :mrgreen:

Yeah, they got that near me too.
Bastards.  Should periodically be sprayed with a high pressure washer.

Ah... much like the midget ninja with a sledgehammer thing when cars roll into the "advanced stop line" thing intended for cyclists.

Every time they take a puff in a public place some midget dressed in a pink tutu (never gets old) comes on with a firehose, sprays them in the face... then runs off.

Now that.. would be amusing :)

Quote from: M3ta7h3adAh... much like the midget ninja with a sledgehammer thing when cars roll into the "advanced stop line" thing intended for cyclists.

Every time they take a puff in a public place some midget dressed in a pink tutu (never gets old) comes on with a firehose, sprays them in the face... then runs off.

Now that.. would be amusing :)

more amusing is going to be my reaction next some some suppercilious berk stands next to me when im outside and tells me im not allowed to smoke in public.  They got their way with smoking and pubs.  If im smoking outside and someone complains about it they can get ****ed.  We all know people are going to WHINE about smoking in covered beer gardens dont we.  Well tough titty, if im not allowed to smoke inside, ill smoke outside in the beer garden.  

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: M3ta7h3adAh... much like the midget ninja with a sledgehammer thing when cars roll into the "advanced stop line" thing intended for cyclists.

Every time they take a puff in a public place some midget dressed in a pink tutu (never gets old) comes on with a firehose, sprays them in the face... then runs off.

Now that.. would be amusing :)

more amusing is going to be my reaction next some some suppercilious berk stands next to me when im outside and tells me im not allowed to smoke in public.  They got their way with smoking and pubs.  If im smoking outside and someone complains about it they can get ****ed.  We all know people are going to WHINE about smoking in covered beer gardens dont we.  Well tough titty, if im not allowed to smoke inside, ill smoke outside in the beer garden.  

lol... indeed quite amusing. TBH I am dead against [relaxing the cursing rules does not relax the need to respect other members -Max] smoking in public places, again the point should be raised over why the f*** [f-word is still not fair game on the forums, tho I do like it as well -M] I should suffer for your habits. Passive smoking is about my least favourite past time.

Im fairly ecstatic over the scotland ban, and cant wait for it to be made country wide.

Quote from: M3ta7h3adlol... indeed quite amusing. TBH I am dead against [edit] such as yourself smoking in public places, again the point should be raised over why the copulate I should suffer for your habits. Passive smoking is about my least favourite past time.

Im fairly ecstatic over the scotland ban, and cant wait for it to be made country wide.

if im stood outside on the street having a cig, and someone comes and stands next to me then complains about the smoke they can bugger off.  When im on my bike can i knock on car windows and complaing the exhaust fumes are choking me?  no, didnt think so.  just because you dont smoke doesnt mean you are a better person.  It just means you ahve other habits, some of them just as likely to cause harm to others as smoking.  Your attitude is commendable that you want a better environment to live in, however everyone here will have a habit that annoys the hell out of someone somewhere.  Personally I would ban skateboards, the wankers round me rattle along all day long and force me to keep my windows shut in my offfice due to the noise.  

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: M3ta7h3adlol... indeed quite amusing. TBH I am dead against cocks such as yourself smoking in public places, again the point should be raised over why the f**k I should suffer for your habits. Passive smoking is about my least favourite past time.

Im fairly ecstatic over the scotland ban, and cant wait for it to be made country wide.

if im stood outside on the street having a cig, and someone comes and stands next to me then complains about the smoke they can bugger off.  When im on my bike can i knock on car windows and complaing the exhaust fumes are choking me?  no, didnt think so.  just because you dont smoke doesnt mean you are a better person.  It just means you ahve other habits, some of them just as likely to cause harm to others as smoking.  Your attitude is commendable that you want a better environment to live in, however everyone here will have a habit that annoys the hell out of someone somewhere.  Personally I would ban skateboards, the wankers round me rattle along all day long and force me to keep my windows shut in my offfice due to the noise.  

Streets.. fair cop. But come on... Beer gardens are a bit more "enclosed" than streets. If im outside enjoying the sun with a pint the last thing I want is to suck down fumes of any kind (car or smokers).

Skateboarders.. hell yeah. They are banned everywhere afaiwa, just people dont make a big deal of it. Same with ball games on public streets (bastard children kicking balls into the cars all day fricking long).

True harmful habits are harmful habits and im sure you could find some on me :) but.. smoking is one less that I dont have, and now the ban is in scotland, its one less that will be adversely affecting the majority of scottish folk.

They havent banned smoking on streets or in public even (unlike alcohol) theyve just banned it in "enclosed public spaces".

Quote from: M3ta7h3adStreets.. fair cop. But come on... Beer gardens are a bit more "enclosed" than streets. If im outside enjoying the sun with a pint the last thing I want is to suck down fumes of any kind (car or smokers).

Skateboarders.. hell yeah. They are banned everywhere afaiwa, just people dont make a big deal of it. Same with ball games on public streets (bastard children kicking balls into the cars all day fricking long).

True harmful habits are harmful habits and im sure you could find some on me :) but.. smoking is one less that I dont have, and now the ban is in scotland, its one less that will be adversely affecting the majority of scottish folk.

They havent banned smoking on streets or in public even (unlike alcohol) theyve just banned it in "enclosed public spaces".

aye, but my simple point with a good number of pubs covering beer gardens is that they are doing it now for the smokers when the ban comes in.  Not because they think itll be a good idea to give the non-smokers somewhere comfy to sit. If im sat in the beer garden having a smoke, and a non-smokersits next to me then they can deal with the smoke of bugger off.  Smokers will be _forced_ to sit in the outside covered areas, the non-smoking lobby pushed us there, and if they have to deal with smoke outside then its tough.  They put us there, they can deal  ;)

Non-smokers, get over it. Youve got your inside space, youve got smoking banned near entrys to buildings (over here at least), but now you want the beer gardens smoke free? Many of these were built because of the smoking ban, if it wasnt for smokers you wouldnt have them.

A wiff or two of smoke isnt going to kill ya or raise your cancer risk, consider it incense. Going to the pub isnt mandatory (yet!) either. Complaining about it outside is about as sad as wanting a perfume ban.

tbh.. smokers should just grow up a bit & realise how pointless smoking is.

smoking, in general, doesnt relax you - it simply relaxes your craving for a fag because you are an addict

fair enough if people are trying to give up but militant smokers who complain about thier rights to smoke are just plain stupid - it shouldnt be allowed in public places at all. If anything smokers should be gratefull for the ban instead of moaning.

Quoteconsider it incense.

Incense smells nice. Cigarette smoke makes you want to vomit.

Im neither here nor there on this argument, but I just thought you should know.  ;)

Quote from: DEViANCEwhen is it coming into effect everywhere else?

In England its April 2007, dont know about Northern Ireland or Wales.

Quote from: Davetbh.. smokers should just grow up a bit & realise how pointless smoking is.

smoking, in general, doesnt relax you - it simply relaxes your craving for a fag because you are an addict

fair enough if people are trying to give up but militant smokers who complain about thier rights to smoke are just plain stupid - it shouldnt be allowed in public places at all. If anything smokers should be gratefull for the ban instead of moaning.

Moan? Addict? Some of us can take it or leave it.

I like a couple ciggies per day. Nicotine is relaxing for many folks, thats an undisputed medical fact. Sometimes I go days without smoking. Some of us arent addicts.

You commentary is as pointless as me calling you a raging alcoholic for having a brewski on the weekends. Should we ban it as well? It causes all sorts of problems, violence and cancer.

this is black
this is white
youre apparantly unaware of this shade

Green!? lol think thats messed up mate :D

Quote from: maximusotterNon-smokers, get over it. Youve got your inside space, youve got smoking banned near entrys to buildings (over here at least), but now you want the beer gardens smoke free?

Calabasas, California? :twisted:

QuoteThe people of Calabasas can no longer light up in the street, in parks, bus stops, by office entrances or even on their own balcony if it overlooks communal areas such as swimming pools.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/18/wsmoke18.xml

Quote from: maximusotterMoan? Addict? Some of us can take it or leave it.

I like a couple ciggies per day. Nicotine is relaxing for many folks,

see thats the problem with addictions - in order to overcome them you need to first admit that you are an addict - some people seem to find this hard to do

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: maximusotterMoan? Addict? Some of us can take it or leave it.

I like a couple ciggies per day. Nicotine is relaxing for many folks,

see thats the problem with addictions - in order to overcome them you need to first admit that you are an addict - some people seem to find this hard to do

Watch it.

Do I smoke first thing in the morning? No
Do I smoke more than 5 cigs per day on average? Never.
Do I often go days without smoking, with no withdrawal symptoms? Yes.

You dont know what addiction means, do go look it up before you make another misfortunate post in this thread.

I know that youre socially conservative from past threads, and usually to me this indicates wanting to follow your gut instead of facts and reality. Its similar to your previous posts about homosexuals that have little to do with fact, but much to do with bogus bias. The problem with social conservatives is that they want to legislate their bigotry, be it against gays or smokers.

Keep it out of the workplace and out of schools, and beyond that, let the public decide with their feet.

I hate laws limiting any kind of personal freedom, be it gun ownership or smoking or painting your house tartan.

If you dont like smoking, start a non-smoking pub or have your friends over, dont legislate your preferences into law, thats just child-like. But of course, most of Europe and Scandinavia is childish, with too many over-reaching laws that infringe on personal freedom. Liberal democracies can be amazingly short sighted and socially conservative/myopic in the name of hysteria.

Is it your right to pollute my air with poisonous smoke or my right to clean air? :/

Quote from: SeriousIs it your right to pollute my air with poisonous smoke or my right to clean air? :/

Nanny state response, tbh.

You have the right NOT to step into the pub.

I guess living in the UK has turned your lot into whiney little pansies.

Guess what? There are children starving in Darfur, and youre whinging on about catching a whiff of smoke on a patio?

Grow up.

Yeah but if I want a quiet drink with friends I have an equal right to do so without a smoker putting their stuff into my lungs. As there are far more non-smokers than smokers they have the greater right.

Quote from: maximusotter

Quote from: SeriousIs it your right to pollute my air with poisonous smoke or my right to clean air? :/

Nanny state response, tbh.

You have the right NOT to step into the pub.

I guess living in the UK has turned your lot into whiney little pansies.

Guess what? There are children starving in Darfur, and youre whinging on about catching a whiff of smoke on a patio?

Grow up.

No its an honest response unlike yours that comes across as pot painting the kettle black.

You say we have no right to outlaw smoking in pubs, yet your solution is to remove the non-smokers from the pub, the majority of the customers, the majority of the population.

Children starving in darfur.. lovely, but arent you whinging about being victimised and chastised from modern society.

Also while this comes across as selfish its also true. Children starving in darfur doesnt affect me personally. 20+ people smoking in a pub whilst im having a friendly pint with a mate does.

Quote from: SeriousYeah but if I want a quiet drink with friends I have an equal right to do so without a smoker putting their stuff into my lungs.

No you dont. You have the choice of not going to the pub. This "right to smoke free pubs" concept is juvenile. Its like being offended that a film is interupting your conversation even though you entered the movie theater of free will.

Quote from: maximusotter

Quote from: SeriousYeah but if I want a quiet drink with friends I have an equal right to do so without a smoker putting their stuff into my lungs.

No you dont. You have the choice of not going to the pub. This "right to smoke free pubs" concept is juvenile. Its like being offended that a film is interupting your conversation even though you entered the movie theater of free will.

Only in your conservative self-centred, selfish, way of thinking. Anyway I suspect you have already lost this issue as they are unlikely to go back on the decision now.

Quote from: maximusotter

Quote from: SeriousYeah but if I want a quiet drink with friends I have an equal right to do so without a smoker putting their stuff into my lungs.

No you dont. You have the choice of not going to the pub. This "right to smoke free pubs" concept is juvenile. Its like being offended that a film is interupting your conversation even though you entered the movie theater of free will.

No its more like saying the conversation is interrupting your film.

I enter the pub to have a pint. You enter the pub to have a pint.

You choose of your own free will to smoke in a pub, you dont have to, its not something that is typically seen as the thing to do in a pub in fact you ask non-smokers or smokers what a pub is usually used for and theyll come back with "having a drink".

Quote from: M3ta7h3ad

Quote from: maximusotter

Quote from: SeriousIs it your right to pollute my air with poisonous smoke or my right to clean air? :/

Nanny state response, tbh.

You have the right NOT to step into the pub.

I guess living in the UK has turned your lot into whiney little pansies.

Guess what? There are children starving in Darfur, and youre whinging on about catching a whiff of smoke on a patio?

Grow up.

No its an honest response unlike yours that comes across as pot painting the kettle black.

You say we have no right to outlaw smoking in pubs, yet your solution is to remove the non-smokers from the pub, the majority of the customers, the majority of the population.

Children starving in darfur.. lovely, but arent you whinging about being victimised and chastised from modern society.

Also while this comes across as selfish its also true. Children starving in darfur doesnt affect me personally. 20+ people smoking in a pub whilst im having a friendly pint with a mate does.

You were going on about smoking in a beer garden and catching a whiff, it is to this Im responding.

My solution is not to remove the smokers from the pub, please reread my commentary as youre bringing an imaginary side to the argument which never existed--my solution is for the market to decide. Certainly government can pass mild laws requiring separate sections, but beyond that--let the market decide.

A restauranteur in my neighborhood owns a hip sport themed pub and grill. Its a bar so he allows smoking anywhere. Dont like smoke? Go elsewhere.

He also owns a seafood restaurant with a bar. Those patrons are overwhelmingly health concious, so its a non smoking establishment.

The market decided and everybodys served.

Justice can be more naturally acheived with humans listening and responding to each other than draconian law making.

max - why did you start smoking?

you say you could quit any time?

why dont you then - are you really that stupid or are you simply too arrogant to realise that you may have an addiction.

quite simply under a "free" country the owner of an establishment should have the right to choose if they want to be a no-smoking venue or not.

There are a few no smoking bars round here, 3 IIRC and only one of them gets ever remotely busy.  If people felt so strongly about non-smoking bars then why didnt they open more up?

Ill keep going to a few of the pubs ive been using for years, but the 2 that have no option to allow smoking wont get my custom.  Nor will they get much in the way of other smokers custom as they wont cater for our requirements.   Those pubs with no option but to be completely non-smoking may survive quite well in some cases, but the little local pubs that are prevailent in my area will struggle.  The main clientel are people chilling out after a day at work, mainly working class and nearly all smokers.  If they cant smoke at their regular place they will move elsewhere.  This law wasnt thought out very well at all.  There should be an option for premises to apply for exception, unfortunatly there isnt in the case of bars.  Plus im mildy annoyed in that if i follow the letter of the law ill nolonger be allowed to smoke at home.  This is because both me and a mate do work from my house.  As such it is classed as a "place of work".  

Quote from: Davemax - why did you start smoking?

you say you could quit any time?

why dont you then - are you really that stupid or are you simply too arrogant to realise that you may have an addiction.

now this is a misconception that non-smokers have.

Smokers arent stupid, it never occurs to non-smokers that we actually know the problems smoking causes, and the damage it can do to us,  Yet we still chose to smoke.  Ill go days/weeks without a cig, in fact until last night at the pub i hadnt had a cig for 6 days, and i broke my fast with a fine Romeo y Julietta, and rather enjoyed it thankyou.  I tend not to smoke around my girlfriend because she doesnt smoke, she doesnt mid if i do but i choose not to.

Smoking for some people may be an addiction, but these days people want to attatch the same stigma as Heroin addiction to it.  Alcohol is just as bad, and yet ill bet _almost_ everyone here drinks.  the smell of stale booze is awful, and the day after when you are sweating it out is even worse.  

So is the smell of second hand smoke :P

I think the main reason that "non-smoking" bars havent kicked off here are because theres too much competition with current bars, people know the bars they like so they stick to them. They will mostly all admit that things could improve if was a non-smoking bar, but they wont deliberately go out of their way to what could well be a crap bar to find out about one.

the whole alcohol is just as bad thing is rubbish though.

alcohol in itself is no where near as bad nor as easy to get addicted to - drinking a small ammount of alcohol regularly is actually healthier than not drinking at all - tis binge drinking that is the problem.

the thing that puzzels me is why anyone smokes these days if they are allegedly "not addicted" - yeah it "relaxes" you & helps you chill out - that is because you have a craving for nicotine & getting a fix of nicotine is suppressing that craving.

Quote from: Davemax - why did you start smoking?

you say you could quit any time?

why dont you then - are you really that stupid or are you simply too arrogant to realise that you may have an addiction.

You dont have to be an adict to smoke, my mum gave up with no adverse reaction at all. For a few its just a drug to help mellow the day.

In my case I cant get adicted at all, it just does nothing for me except give me sinusitis and a raging headache, which is why I have tended to avoid going into pubs. Perhaps when the ban gets going I will go to them more.

Quote from: M3ta7h3adSo is the smell of second hand smoke :P

I think the main reason that "non-smoking" bars havent kicked off here are because theres too much competition with current bars, people know the bars they like so they stick to them. They will mostly all admit that things could improve if was a non-smoking bar, but they wont deliberately go out of their way to what could well be a crap bar to find out about one.

of the bars round here the only bar that is doing well for itself is a former bar anyway.  Bit of a "Place to be seen" type of bar.  He other two struggle for custom.  I wouldnt go in any of them anyway, they are dress  up places where jeans and boots are a definate no-no.

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: M3ta7h3adSo is the smell of second hand smoke :P

I think the main reason that "non-smoking" bars havent kicked off here are because theres too much competition with current bars, people know the bars they like so they stick to them. They will mostly all admit that things could improve if was a non-smoking bar, but they wont deliberately go out of their way to what could well be a crap bar to find out about one.

of the bars round here the only bar that is doing well for itself is a former bar anyway.  Bit of a "Place to be seen" type of bar.  He other two struggle for custom.  I wouldnt go in any of them anyway, they are dress  up places where jeans and boots are a definate no-no.

So you agree then :) See.. "non-smoking bar" isnt enough of an attraction for most people to change their favourite watering holes, however most of those people would say that if their favourite watering hole was non-smoking itd be great!

As for the "dressy up" stuff.. pah bollocks, yuppie wine bars. I prefer old pubs :) with barmaids that have bulging muscles in their right arm from hand pulling pints of real ale :D

Quote from: Beakerquite simply under a "free" country the owner of an establishment should have the right to choose if they want to be a no-smoking venue or not.

There are a few no smoking bars round here, 3 IIRC and only one of them gets ever remotely busy.  If people felt so strongly about non-smoking bars then why didnt they open more up?

Ill keep going to a few of the pubs ive been using for years, but the 2 that have no option to allow smoking wont get my custom.

So if theres a blanket ban on smoking are you going to stop smoking in bars or are you just going to avoid all of them?

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: Beakerquite simply under a "free" country the owner of an establishment should have the right to choose if they want to be a no-smoking venue or not.

There are a few no smoking bars round here, 3 IIRC and only one of them gets ever remotely busy.  If people felt so strongly about non-smoking bars then why didnt they open more up?

Ill keep going to a few of the pubs ive been using for years, but the 2 that have no option to allow smoking wont get my custom.

So if theres a blanket ban on smoking are you going to stop smoking in bars or are you just going to avoid all of them?

Im goginto use the bars that have comfey smoking areas outside, with awnings and heaters.  :)  The nearest pub to my house wont be used at all anymore, i wont be able to have a cig in there.  I wander in some nights for a beer on my way home, i wont anymore.  Nor will most of the other guys who grab a pint and a cig on the way home.  

Quote from: Davethe whole alcohol is just as bad thing is rubbish though.

alcohol in itself is no where near as bad nor as easy to get addicted to - drinking a small ammount of alcohol regularly is actually healthier than not drinking at all - tis binge drinking that is the problem.

the thing that puzzels me is why anyone smokes these days if they are allegedly "not addicted" - yeah it "relaxes" you & helps you chill out - that is because you have a craving for nicotine & getting a fix of nicotine is suppressing that craving.

not really, you dont get people ringing into work sick and saying they are ill if they smoke too much the night before.  Nor can you ingest enough Nicotine to kill you in the space of a few hours.  You are safe to drive after a cig, and you are unlikely to lash out and beat the hell out of someone if you smoke too much.

Quote from: BeakerNor can you ingest enough Nicotine to kill you in the space of a few hours.

Actually you can, a single packet can easily contain enough to kill someone, but the chances are you will feel far too ill to take any more before you get close to the level that will kill you. Nicotine is a very nasty substance.

Quote from: Beakernot really, you dont get people ringing into work sick and saying they are ill if they smoke too much the night before.  Nor can you ingest enough Nicotine to kill you in the space of a few hours.  You are safe to drive after a cig, and you are unlikely to lash out and beat the hell out of someone if you smoke too much.

yes but it isnt going to give you lung cancer or kill you (unless you are a binge drinker) & it isnt affecting others around you either (again unless you are a binge drinker or a chav)

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: Beakernot really, you dont get people ringing into work sick and saying they are ill if they smoke too much the night before.  Nor can you ingest enough Nicotine to kill you in the space of a few hours.  You are safe to drive after a cig, and you are unlikely to lash out and beat the hell out of someone if you smoke too much.

yes but it isnt going to give you lung cancer or kill you (unless you are a binge drinker) & it isnt affecting others around you either (again unless you are a binge drinker or a chav)

Alcohol _will_ kill you far more easily than cigs, plus im sure we have all seen mates get so plastered they needed taking home, or got took home by coppers or similar.  "Binge drinking" is also amusing me atm, what is a binge drinker?  according to the offical sources it is someone who has more than 6 points in an evening.  Ill normally have about that plus whisky and be perectly fine.  Last night for example i had 5 bottle of Brown with whisky chasers.  When i left the club my mates thought i was driving because my car was in the car park and i was "sober"!

Quote from: seriousActually you can, a single packet can easily contain enough to kill someone, but the chances are you will feel far too ill to take any more before you get close to the level that will kill you. Nicotine is a very nasty substance.

most folks i know who smoke can easily chew through a full pack on a night drinking and not even feel quesy from it.  

Quote from: BeakerAlcohol _will_ kill you far more easily than cigs,

so will driving too fast - it doesnt mean they are directly comparible in that respect

smoking causes lung cancer & harms others around you

alcohol - in moderation - is harmless

yes bar staff should be more responsible when serving drunk people but that is really a seperate topic - the fact is that having a pint of larger in the pub doesnt harm anyone else around you - having a fag does & also makes peoples clothes smell.

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: BeakerAlcohol _will_ kill you far more easily than cigs,

so will driving too fast - it doesnt mean they are directly comparible in that respect

smoking causes lung cancer & harms others around you

alcohol - in moderation - is harmless

yes bar staff should be more responsible when serving drunk people but that is really a seperate topic - the fact is that having a pint of larger in the pub doesnt harm anyone else around you - having a fag does & also makes peoples clothes smell.

*sigh*

Im going to be forced to go outside and have a cig yes?  well into a covered area that will be provided for smokers.  

Having apint of lager doesnt harm anyone around you no, but then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

If we stopped doing all the things people say are bad for us, and others around us then we would live in mud-brick huts, walk everywhere and grow our own food, in an ecologically friendly way without using chemicals.  Plus we wouldnt exactly smell nice either due to the fact fires to create the charcoal in soap would be deemed to be poisoning the atmosphere with Carbon emissions.  

Ill keep smoking thanks, ill do it where im allowed.  Ill also ignore or insult the non-smokers who come into the smoking area and complain.  If im not smoking in their space then they cant make me not smoke in mine. :)

Quote from: Davemax - why did you start smoking?

you say you could quit any time?

why dont you then - are you really that stupid or are you simply too arrogant to realise that you may have an addiction.

Why quit?


I love smoking, but do so in moderation. Big deal.

Im sure you eat sausages occasionaly, and they cause similar heart conditions.

I do o get the fact that sausage eating and smoking differ. Blowing wurst smoke is dificult---but in the end its about personal responsability.

Freaked about smoke? Dont go to a smokey tavern. Duh..

To smokey pubs and rooms I found to be a pain even then I smoked. The ban in sweden works very well, my wife smokes and goes outside to smoke even at home not because I told her but because she do not wont the home "stained" by smoke. Max there is a lot of small towns that only have one or two places to go to so a choice does not excist. In sweden in norway and other places there a smoke ban for public places has been invoked there has been a lot of bitching and moaning at first but it has all worked out remarkably well just give it a half a year or so.

Quote from: bearbut because she do not wont the home "stained" by smoke.

My father used to have to repaint the ceiling in the living room every year because he and mum smoked resulting in a yucky yellow staining. After they stopped the painting stopped too. Present one hasnt been repainted in two years. In the previous House I painted the living room ceiling when we moved in and only repainted when we were getting ready to sell the place ten years later.

Quote from: BeakerHaving apint of lager doesnt harm anyone around you no, but then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

Thats a typical "Roll over and ignore a wealth of medical evidence" response  :roll:

As far as Im concerned, it comes down to this:

If I walked into a bar, got out a gas stove and started frying up a pan of piss, Id probably be asked to leave, and quite rightly so.  I cant see any smokers stepping in and shouting about my right to create a god-awful stench in public.  The fact that people are allowed to do the same with nicotine is purely due to it being such an old practice.  In my opinion, if youre a smoker, the onus is on you to ensure that youre not affecting others, not the other way round.  Its like me juggling with nuclear warheads in my back garden and then chastising my neighbours for complaining about the fallout blowing over their garden.  

Quote from: maximusotterWhy quit?

fairly obvious - if it needs explaining to you then there isnt much hope tbh...

QuoteI love smoking, but do so in moderation. Big deal.

Im sure you eat sausages occasionaly, and they cause similar heart conditions.

crack on - just do it in your own home

comparing it to eating sausages is laughable tbh...

What a load of slapped arsed babies smokers are...

My missus, a few of my mates and some relatives have respiratory problems, some congenital, some are work related and as a result they cannot tolerate dusty or smokey environments.

Hence because some pleb who smokes, refuses to smoke outside of the pub or just not smoke, my friends or relatives or other people in a similar condition cannot enjoy a drink in that pub?

If the smokers didnt smoke in that pub, then everyone could go in there... BUT if a number of smokers light up the air is polluted.

Smokers really do show themselves up to be, "Im alright jack", "screw everyone else" kind of people on such issues.

Its not going to kill someone if they dont smoke.

And these utter cretins who say, "lets have a smoking area in bars and pubs"

1) Its like having a "pissing" area in a swimming pool
2) Youll be crying because you are penned up away from the non-smokers.

Smoking kills, if you want to smoke, do it in your own sh*t pit and dont claim on the NHS when you are coughing and wheezing like some old cripple...

also, dont compare smoking with eating junk food...

Ive worked in the medical research/hospital environment to know that smoking is suicide and when youre cramming your lungs with that sh*t, youre making someone else do it... another example of how smokers are selfish...

Well done that man..... everything rang true (im a reformed smoker)..... and the swimming pool comment made me rofl

Quote from: BadabingWhat a load of slapped arsed babies smokers are...

My missus, a few of my mates and some relatives have respiratory problems, some congenital, some are work related and as a result they cannot tolerate dusty or smokey environments.

Hence because some pleb who smokes, refuses to smoke outside of the pub or just not smoke, my friends or relatives or other people in a similar condition cannot enjoy a drink in that pub?

If the smokers didnt smoke in that pub, then everyone could go in there... BUT if a number of smokers light up the air is polluted.

Smokers really do show themselves up to be, "Im alright jack", "screw everyone else" kind of people on such issues.

Its not going to kill someone if they dont smoke.

And these utter cretins who say, "lets have a smoking area in bars and pubs"

1) Its like having a "pissing" area in a swimming pool
2) Youll be crying because you are penned up away from the non-smokers.

Smoking kills, if you want to smoke, do it in your own sh*t pit and dont claim on the NHS when you are coughing and wheezing like some old cripple...

also, dont compare smoking with eating junk food...

Ive worked in the medical research/hospital environment to know that smoking is suicide and when youre cramming your lungs with that sh*t, youre making someone else do it... another example of how smokers are selfish...

Couldnt have put it better

lol.. legend. :D Made me spray the macs screen with coke after reading the pissing bit :D rofl.

Well explained :)

I want a pissing area in the swimming pool.
Its not fair.  A travesty even!

Quote from: funkychicken9000

Quote from: BeakerHaving apint of lager doesnt harm anyone around you no, but then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

Thats a typical "Roll over and ignore a wealth of medical evidence" response  :roll:

As far as Im concerned, it comes down to this:

If I walked into a bar, got out a gas stove and started frying up a pan of piss, Id probably be asked to leave, and quite rightly so.  I cant see any smokers stepping in and shouting about my right to create a god-awful stench in public.  The fact that people are allowed to do the same with nicotine is purely due to it being such an old practice.  In my opinion, if youre a smoker, the onus is on you to ensure that youre not affecting others, not the other way round.  Its like me juggling with nuclear warheads in my back garden and then chastising my neighbours for complaining about the fallout blowing over their garden.  

heh im not arguing with the fact smoking has been linked to a variety of illnessess. I was making a point that Alcohol and Nicotine are both dangerous substances, and when you imbibe either then you take full responsibility for any ill effects.  

As i said, my regular watering hole is in the process of finishing off an "outside" area in what was formerly the beer garden about 15 years back, and about 4 refurbs ago.  Not been used for years, so the landlord decided to cover it over, spruce it up and let the smokers use it (Freehold Pub and business with no ties to breweries are a wonderful thing).  Im fine with the arrangement, however i give it maybe 30 minutes before someone comes into the smoking area and complains about the smoke.  The landlord has told us we can be as insulting as we like, provided we dont get violent.  He himself will be out there having a pipe with us anyhow.  

Quote from: Badabing*words*

heh, nah.  it was non-smokers whining that they "had" to breath smoke that got it banned.  Youll find most smokers have already worked out what they will do when the ban comes into force.  Most wont stop smoking, and they will likely move off to places they can continue to smoke.  We wont be crying about being penned away form non-smokers, but if the non-smokers come into the smoking areas and complain we should be legally allowed to put our cigs out on them :)
As for the NHS, the amount i pay in Tax to the government when buying cigs could be put aside for treatment of smoking related diseases, that would mean we pay in advance for our treatment, seems fair.  We pay for our own self inflicted injuries. :)
On a personal level i cant stand people smoking when im eating, and i wont smoke when others are.  I dont even consider asking if im at someones house and they dont smoke, nor do i when im in a non-smokers car.  I dont smoke around my GF very often, in fact ill actually wander into the next room, or go outside if she is around.  She doesnt mind the smell (in fact if im smoking a cigar ill be naked 10 minutes after i light it), but she doesnt smoke so i dont when she is here.  
oh, and THOSE ****ing little ***ts On ****ing Skateboards are back again.  Im getting homicidal, its FREEZING out there and they dont know when to piss off.

Quote from: Beakerheh im not arguing with the fact smoking has been linked to a variety of illnessess. I was making a point that Alcohol and Nicotine are both dangerous substances, and when you imbibe either then you take full responsibility for any ill effects.  

Indeed.  But why should a smoker have the right to decide whether I imbibe his smoke?

Quote from: funkychicken9000

Quote from: Beakerheh im not arguing with the fact smoking has been linked to a variety of illnessess. I was making a point that Alcohol and Nicotine are both dangerous substances, and when you imbibe either then you take full responsibility for any ill effects.  

Indeed.  But why should a smoker have the right to decide whether I imbibe his smoke?

If im in an area, outside the fabric of the building that the landlord has kindly provided for smokers usage then a non-smoker has no right into it and moan about smoke.  The Licencee has paid for the smoking area out of his own pocket to give his customers somewhere to smoke.  Nothing wrong with it, because if the licencee welcomes smokers its pretty much tough.  none of us here have a _right_ to enter a pub and be served anyway.  

beaker quotes me, makes a facetious comment then makes no references to any part of my post except make points which are irrelevant...

beaker, if people who have campaigned for smoking to be banned, why would they go into a place where people smoke?

i dont know what your point is...  :?

Quote from: Badabingbeaker quotes me, makes a facetious comment then makes no references to any part of my post except make points which are irrelevant...

beaker, if people who have campaigned for smoking to be banned, why would they go into a place where people smoke?

i dont know what your point is...  :?

because even you must admit some of the non-smokers are unbelievably patronising and irritating.  Some of them _will_ go into the smoking areas and cause hassle.  One of the Wetherspoons pubs round me had a HUGE no-smoking area, in fact it was the largest bit of the pub for years. THe smokers where forced into the back corner out of the way, and isolated from the rest of the pub.  Despite that the amount of times non-smokers came and sat down near me and my lates then whined about smoke i lost count of.  There where 4 tall signs saying it was the smoking area!  they where either illiterate or just being annoying when the rest of the pub was empty.  


And since you insist:

QuoteIf the smokers didnt smoke in that pub, then everyone could go in there... BUT if a number of smokers light up the air is polluted.

see this is my big problem with _anyones_ argument about not smoking in pubs.  The licencee should have been left to decide, with decent incentives to make the bars no smoking.  A licencee can refuse to let someone in a pub just because he feels that way inclined.  When you go into a pub you are effectively (and legally) entering his house.  In his house he should be permitted the same freedoms everyone else has.  I wouldnt dream of going into a mates house and telling him to stop doing something, its _his_ house after all.  

QuoteSmokers really do show themselves up to be, "Im alright jack", "screw everyone else" kind of people on such issues.

Some do, some dont. Youll find that most smokers will stub it out if someone gives them a decent reason to then and there, but the majority of non-smokers have a habit of being very rude about it.  If my smoke is causing someone a serious problem ill tend to move, or stub it out.  Unless of course they start and extended rant, in that case since ive been inflicted with their usually patronising, and often downright demanding rant ill chainsmoke, or better still get a good fat cigar on the go.  Politeness costs nothing, and pays fortunes.  

QuoteSmoking kills, if you want to smoke, do it in your own sh*t pit and dont claim on the NHS when you are coughing and wheezing like some old cripple...

I do like a cig, i also love cigars.  I actually resent the "sh*t pit" comment, that suggest smokers are all scumbags and the like.  Actually no, but i can introduce you to some truely vile and disgusting human beings who live like pigs, yet still have the audacity to have a go at me for smoking.  

Quotealso, dont compare smoking with eating junk food...

No indeed not, give us another 20 years for obesity and haert disease due to overeating to be the largest killer in the UK.  Well catch up with the USA eventually.  

QuoteIve worked in the medical research/hospital environment to know that smoking is suicide and when youre cramming your lungs with that sh*t, youre making someone else do it... another example of how smokers are selfish...

When you use anything that is petrol powered you are helping to cram yours and everyone elses lungs full of sh*t as well.  Smoking isnt responsible for the Smogs in various cities around the world, cars are.  Drivers are selfish for burning a non-renewable source of fuel, and polluting the air around them with Hydrocarbons and CO2.  Yes i also drive, but i do it as little as possible because i dont need to drive most places i go.  

Quote from: BeakerWhen you use anything that is petrol powered you are helping to cram yours and everyone elses lungs full of sh*t as well.  Smoking isnt responsible for the Smogs in various cities around the world, cars are.  Drivers are selfish for burning a non-renewable source of fuel, and polluting the air around them with Hydrocarbons and CO2.  Yes i also drive, but i do it as little as possible because i dont need to drive most places i go.  

But when was the last time you drove your car indoors?? Think you missed the point of the smoking ban TBH. Its just in enclosed areas

Quote from: brummieBut when was the last time you drove your car indoors?? Think you missed the point of the smoking ban TBH. Its just in enclosed areas

no, i got the point of the smoking ban, but car massed cars fumes choke you just as well as someone smoking.  I ride a bike quite lot, mainly to work these days as the bike park is next to the back door, and the carpark is half a mile from the office. The trucks belching out clouds of deisel smoke are particularly annoying, when they accelerate the stink and fumes are awful.  however I cant really complain because i choose to do what i do.  I remember one of he girls i know telling us about rish hour in Chicago, Aparrently at certain times of the day masks arent really optional.  Same girl recons you really need breathing apparatus in tokyo because its even worse!  

as i siad, im not overly bothered about the smoking ban in the long term, itll be slightly irritating that i wont be able to nip into the pub on the way home for a pint and a cig while i chill out, but in the end ill jst spend my money elsewhere in another bar where i can smoke in comfort.

I do feel for the smokers as its something they want to do but they are in the minority and are doing something that has no benefits.

Quote from: BeakerIf im in an area, outside the fabric of the building that the landlord has kindly provided for smokers usage then a non-smoker has no right into it and moan about smoke.  The Licencee has paid for the smoking area out of his own pocket to give his customers somewhere to smoke.  Nothing wrong with it, because if the licencee welcomes smokers its pretty much tough.  none of us here have a _right_ to enter a pub and be served anyway.  

And smokers are going to go into the plastic tent while their non-smoking friends stay in a nice warm pub? Either the non-smokers are going to feel pressurised to go with the smokers or the smokers are going to refrain from smoking.

Actually the law has nothing really to do with the rights of non-smoking people wanting a quiet drink and plenty to do with the rights of non-smoking employees not having to breathe pollutants while they work...

Quote from: brummieI do feel for the smokers as its something they want to do but they are in the minority and are doing something that has no benefits.

It has personal benefits to them, though.

These arguements invariably go back and forth and having been on both sides of the fence I will say it is good news that there is clean air in pubs now, but the zealots baying for smokers blood are way off the mark, there is compromise to be had, not an outright back to your sh*t pit, sub-human scum style ban. If they want to smoke in a designated zone - outside or ventilated inside - deal with it.

Speeding, driving, drinking, gluttony, etc. can all be killers and can all affect those around you in one way or another, whether its being bottled by the drunk, run over by the drunk driver in his fifteen year old banger polluting the ozone or killed by the car doing forty instead of thirty.

Some people need to lighten up and get some perspective on the big picture and stop whinging about trivialities such as this. Give the smokers a bit of respect and some personal freedom and youll get much more than that back.

Quote from: Clockd 0NeIt has personal benefits to them, though.

What benefits?? My misses smokes and i am an ex smoker. I never noticed any benefits TBPFH.

Quote from: SeriousAnd smokers are going to go into the plastic tent while their non-smoking friends stay in a nice warm pub? Either the non-smokers are going to feel pressurised to go with the smokers or the smokers are going to refrain from smoking.

Actually the law has nothing really to do with the rights of non-smoking people wanting a quiet drink and plenty to do with the rights of non-smoking employees not having to breathe pollutants while they work...

ahh the employees angle, was waiting for that one, and its still a crap reason.  If the licencee wants to allow smoking then he should be allowed to, but he should eplain the possible health risks.  If you knowingly go into a dangerous situation as part of your job, and you took that job knowing full well the possible risks then you have accepted those risks.  End Of Story.  

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: seriousActually you can, a single packet can easily contain enough to kill someone, but the chances are you will feel far too ill to take any more before you get close to the level that will kill you. Nicotine is a very nasty substance.

most folks i know who smoke can easily chew through a full pack on a night drinking and not even feel quesy from it.  

Because your liver processes it very quickly, Some people get through 80 a day but what they dont do is smoke them all at once. smoking tobacco is also one of the least effective ways of getting the nicotine into your body. They also regulate their intake by the number of inhilations they take.

All that means they never have enough nicotine in their body at one moment to feel ill. There is actually an experiment wherea smoker speeds through as many fags as they can taking deep puffs but not pausing between them, even extremely adicted smokers end up feeling terrible.

Take a pack of ciggies extract the nicotine and take that, or dont as its a lethal dose... A single ciggie can have 6mg, although 4 mg is more likely, a pack of 20 qould give 80mg. 40-60mg will kill opposed to hard drugs which require about 1,000mg.

Quote from: brummie

Quote from: Clockd 0NeIt has personal benefits to them, though.

What benefits?? My misses smokes and i am an ex smoker. I never noticed any benefits TBPFH.

A distraction, momentary stress relief,a timeout, a quick shot of happy. Whatever you want to call it. How much did you smoke and were you a social smoker? That has a lot of bearing on things I would imagine.

Quote from: Clockd 0Ne

Quote from: brummie

Quote from: Clockd 0NeIt has personal benefits to them, though.

What benefits?? My misses smokes and i am an ex smoker. I never noticed any benefits TBPFH.

A distraction, momentary stress relief,a timeout, a quick shot of happy. Whatever you want to call it. How much did you smoke and were you a social smoker? That has a lot of bearing on things I would imagine.

I smoked about 20-25 a day for about 7years. I agree you got the sense of a stress relief but the stress was probably brought on mainly from not having enough nicotine in your body.

Quote from: brummieI smoked about 20-25 a day for about 7years. I agree you got the sense of a stress relief but the stress was probably brought on mainly from not having enough nicotine in your body.

for some people yes, i would agree.  However as i said upthread i didnt have a cig for 6 days and didnt notice it had been that long, but the nice cigar chilled me out no end.  Same goes for a cig, sometimes it is just nice to sit back with a pint and a cig after a long day.  

Quote from: Beakerahh the employees angle, was waiting for that one, and its still a crap reason.  If the licencee wants to allow smoking then he should be allowed to, but he should eplain the possible health risks.  If you knowingly go into a dangerous situation as part of your job, and you took that job knowing full well the possible risks then you have accepted those risks.  End Of Story.  

yeah - feck health and safety - its up to the boss whether the workers have to work in a smokey environment ????? - some of those people dont really have any alternatives btw... - it isnt really fair on them. I dont think too many people do crappy low paid jobs purely out of choice - they do it because they need the money so it shouldnt simply be a case of the boss decides - there should be no reason for staff to be unnecessarily put at risk in thier place of work.

Quote from: Beakerbut then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

Even the tobacco companies have admitted in court that it is adictive, causes health problems and can kill you.

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: Beakerahh the employees angle, was waiting for that one, and its still a crap reason.  If the licencee wants to allow smoking then he should be allowed to, but he should eplain the possible health risks.  If you knowingly go into a dangerous situation as part of your job, and you took that job knowing full well the possible risks then you have accepted those risks.  End Of Story.  

yeah - feck health and safety - its up to the boss whether the workers have to work in a smokey environment ????? - some of those people dont really have any alternatives btw... - it isnt really fair on them. I dont think too many people do crappy low paid jobs purely out of choice - they do it because they need the money so it shouldnt simply be a case of the boss decides - there should be no reason for staff to be unnecessarily put at risk in thier place of work.

by explaining the problem he gives them a choice to still take the job or not, and in the public bar payscale youll find other jobs that pay the same and dont mean working in a smokey atmosphere.  Soldiers are likely to be shot at, and they take their job knowing this.  They dont expect the other dudes to not shoot at them because its dangerous.  :\

Quote from: Clockd 0NeA distraction, momentary stress relief,a timeout, a quick shot of happy. Whatever you want to call it. How much did you smoke and were you a social smoker? That has a lot of bearing on things I would imagine.

all it really does is calm down a craving/desire for nicotine - if you didnt smoke in the first place then you would have no need for it

smoking in itself serves no useful purpose - tis only once youve started that you have reason to buy more

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: Beakerbut then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

Even the tobacco companies have admitted in court that it is adictive, causes health problems and can kill you.

yes the tobacco companies admitted it was addictive, but they didnt say it caused health problems and killed you, they admitted it was linked.  Smoking isnt the only thing that causes cancer you know.

Quote from: Beakerby explaining the problem he gives them a choice to still take the job or not, and in the public bar payscale youll find other jobs that pay the same and dont mean working in a smokey atmosphere.

yes - I think you missed the point - some people dont really have that choice. Im not in that position at the moment but there are plenty of students out there who need cash in the summer & pretty much have to take what is given if they are not quick enough & also for unemployed people it may well be the only option they have on offer at the time - IIRC people claiming jobseekers allowance have to turn up to interviews for potential jobs.

QuoteSoldiers are likely to be shot at, and they take their job knowing this.  They dont expect the other dudes to not shoot at them because its dangerous.  :\

they are also given equipment to deal with it (well most of the time anyway)

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: Beakerbut then again nobody has _conclusively_ proved it doesnt either.  Similarly nobody has _conclusively_ proved that passive smoking is bad for you either.  Studies have shown that it "may" be a contributing factor.

Even the tobacco companies have admitted in court that it is adictive, causes health problems and can kill you.

yes the tobacco companies admitted it was addictive, but they didnt say it caused health problems and killed you, they admitted it was linked.  Smoking isnt the only thing that causes cancer you know.

Smoking, due to its nature i.e. a fluid which can diffuse through a room is a very potent carcinogen, affecting everyone including the smoker. It is also full of carcinogenic agents not just one, like benzene in certain chemicals... it is also directly taken into the lungs and blood, so it is very direct, too.... why people still want to smoke and want to burden people with this wretched habit is beyond me....

I wont run into your living room when you are watching match of the day and sh*t on the sofa, as long as you dont come into a pub where i am drinking and smoke... deal?

Quote from: brummieI smoked about 20-25 a day for about 7years. I agree you got the sense of a stress relief but the stress was probably brought on mainly from not having enough nicotine in your body.

Your body produces its own anti stress chemicals, if you inhale nicoteine then it will tend to replace the natural alternatives and your body will produce less to compensate, this is why so many people who try to give up suffer massive stress problems while doing so, that bad attitude isnt just the lack of nicotine its the lack of the bodys natural versions that it has given up producing. Eventually people end up smoking not to feel better but just not to feel worse. Its the same with all addictive drugs.

Of course a lot of addiction is partly due to genetics, some people loose a lot more of their own anti-stress chemicals than others so that while they might go through all forms of hell the others dont feel it at all.

Even thats not the whole story as many women dont smoke for the nicotine at all, its the ritual of lighting up and smoking that gets them, give these people nicotine replacement gum or patches and it just doesnt work!

Quote from: Daveyes - I think you missed the point - some people dont really have that choice. Im not in that position at the moment but there are plenty of students out there who need cash in the summer & pretty much have to take what is given if they are not quick enough & also for unemployed people it may well be the only option they have on offer at the time - IIRC people claiming jobseekers allowance have to turn up to interviews for potential jobs.

Yup, but when i was looking before i started my present job there where shedloads of jobs that paid the same as pub work, places like Asda, Morrisons etc _always_ had vacancies.  Pubs actually tend to have less jobs available than supermarkets, when i finished working for S&N a good few years back i tried hunting down a pub job, couldnt find one anywhere and it was the run up to Christmas when you would think pubs would be employing, hell even the relief circuit was too dead to even consider.  

Quotethey are also given equipment to deal with it (well most of the time anyway)

so they could have given the people who work in the bars breathing apparatus if they asked yes?  

Quote from: BadabingI wont run into your living room when you are watching match of the day and sh*t on the sofa, as long as you dont come into a pub where i am drinking and smoke... deal?

nope, argument invalid.  The pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

yes you still dont understand the point

there are not always going to be alternatives - just because you found several jobs when you happened to be looking in a particular area at a particular point in time doesnt mean that all the other hundreds of thousands of people who are looking for work are going to be so lucky.

as for providing them with respirators - how many pubs are going to allow that? (aside from your local biker pub whos customers may well be into that sort of thing ;) )

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: BadabingI wont run into your living room when you are watching match of the day and sh*t on the sofa, as long as you dont come into a pub where i am drinking and smoke... deal?

nope, argument invalid.  The pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

You see what you are saying is, i want to smoke, so other peoples wishes are not relevant... it really is down to how selfish people are...

Quote from: Daveyes you still dont understand the point

there are not always going to be alternatives - just because you found several jobs when you happened to be looking in a particular area at a particular point in time doesnt mean that all the other hundreds of thousands of people who are looking for work are going to be so lucky.

There are almost always alternatives, thinking of the little viliages dotted around the Fylde(Blackpool) area youll find lots of farm type work, plucking chickens, picking spuds etc etc.  Some mates when they where younger used to spend summers harvesting and winters plucking chickens.  Others would do things like delivery work, or general labouring.  Most towns (and these days a lot of villiages) have supermarkets, 24 hour garages etc.  Almost always under-staffed, and invariably advertising somewhere for employees.  I understand the point, but job centers are also required to supply you the details of "relevant" work these days.  THinking back 10 years tomy last visit to one things have changed massively.  They gave me alist of jobs that i _had_ to apply for and attend the interviews if i got, even for jobs i wouldnt ever consider doing or i didnt get a penny!

Quoteas for providing them with respirators - how many pubs are going to allow that? (aside from your local biker pub whos customers may well be into that sort of thing ;) )

nah, the bikers where i drink think the cybergoths are _very_ odd.

Quote from: BeakerThe pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

The no smoking ban is still for the protection of employees, not non-smoking people buying drinks. Perhaps you would like everyone else to go outside, including the staff while you smoked?

Quote from: Badabing

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: BadabingI wont run into your living room when you are watching match of the day and sh*t on the sofa, as long as you dont come into a pub where i am drinking and smoke... deal?

nope, argument invalid.  The pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

You see what you are saying is, i want to smoke, so other peoples wishes are not relevant... it really is down to how selfish people are...

no, what im saying is that if the landlord is willing to let people smoke in his house then he should be allowed to let them.  It is his business, and in most cases his home as well.  Incentives should have been put in place to make it worthwhile making a pub non-smoking.  I enjoy a cig, but as i said, if im in mainly non-smoking company i dont smoke.  likewise most non-smokers i know dont complain about smoking when they are in the minority and we are out boozing.
What has happend with the law isnt adding freedom to people, it has taken it away.  Legislating against something isnt how it should be done, legislating FOR something is far better.  Doing something like giving tax breaks to non-smoking establishments would have given choice to everyone, because most breweries would have instantly taken the non-smoking route instantly anyway.  

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: BeakerThe pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

The no smoking ban is still for the protection of employees, not non-smoking people buying drinks. Perhaps you would like everyone else to go outside, including the staff while you smoked?

read up the thread, comments about knowing the risks and supplying relevant PPE :)

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: Badabing

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: Badabinglegislating FOR something is far better.

Like FOR fresh air in work environments.

Quote from: bearLike FOR fresh air in work environments.

hahaha

Yeah really?  If that is true then how come the legislation doesnt mention anything about Sewage Farms, Welding shops, Drain Workers, Mechanics etc etc etc?  

Its got bugger all to do with clean air at work, its a law targeted at a Minority.

Stop acting so damn hard done by.  Its not going to do you any harm to pop outside for a fag, and itll keep everyone else happy.  Hardly much of a sacrifice is it?

Quote from: funkychicken9000Stop acting so damn hard done by.  Its not going to do you any harm to pop outside for a fag, and itll keep everyone else happy.  Hardly much of a sacrifice is it?

im not acting hard done to, im just pointing out that the smoking ban has _nothing_ to do with fresh air at work.  If fresh air at work was the aim then McDonalds would be frying food outside as well.

if its a non-smoking pub ill either go outside or have 1 when i leave it, however if it has a smoking area too f**king right im gonna spark up, and u aint gonna stop me


the best 1 is to sit right on the edge of the smoking area next to someone who is eating, and saying "excuse me, do you mind not eating while im smoking"

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: bearLike FOR fresh air in work environments.

hahaha

Yeah really?  If that is true then how come the legislation doesnt mention anything about Sewage Farms, Welding shops, Drain Workers, Mechanics etc etc etc?  

Its got bugger all to do with clean air at work, its a law targeted at a Minority.

Its a health risk. Health and safety laws state that they should provide a safe working environment. Carcenogenic smoke does not make for a safe working environment, and im surprised that such legislation has not gone through before as its a massive loophole in the law as it stands.

2nd hand smoke with the proper ventilation system is a small risk compared to other occupations. Of course new employees should be informed about possible risk, but after that, its their choice.

Its not coal mining, fer crying out loud.  :roll:

Quote from: maximusotter2nd hand smoke with the proper ventilation system is a small risk compared to other occupations. Of course new employees should be informed about possible risk, but after that, its their choice.

Its not coal mining, fer crying out loud.  :roll:

My point is until now employers of bar workers have been exempt from providing "proper equipment required for the safety of your employees" because it was seen as "part of the job".

This in my opinion is wrong. In any other occupation you would be given ventilators/dust masks or indeed have a "proper ventilation system".

Problem is there is no specification for a ventilation system adequate enough to offer the safe removal of any and all harmful compounds in the smoke for use in a public house/bar.

Now the government has stepped in and instead of enforcing expensive refits or kit needs to deal with the problem, they have in fact tackled the issue of health and safety in the workplace, and public health all in one go with a measure that will make the least number of pubs suffer.

Cough up dosh for a full fume cupboard type system in a pub... or cough up the dough for masks and ventilators for all your staff... or just ban smoking.

In the large proportion of cases smokers will continue to go there, they just wont smoke (Ive yet to meet a smoker who cant wait a little longer until they have a puff, most smoke because they find it quite relaxing... not because they are craving the nicotine). Others... will find other establishments that have made some simple modifications (a canvas awning on a beer garden does not cost a lot of dosh in comparison to other methods of dealing with smokers).

140 pubs out of just how many pubs in scotland?!... I think its an acceptable loss if thats the case, and to be honest I cant see that actual outcome happening anyway.

Most pubs/bars stateside have had smoke eaters for the past decade. They work amazingly well.

http://www.smokeeaters.org/bar/

We ran two in a big room at the Dodger and the air was reasonably fresh, even with a dozen smokers.

 :shock: Had no idea such devices were effective in a bar.

Over here smoke filled dens of death is pretty much the norm. Weatherspoons pubs being amongst the worse as they seem to believe placement of a floor standing sign saying "no-smoking" stops all smoke in its tracks.

great - thing is there is this even better idea out there that can make the air feel fresh - its called not smoking!

air extractors dont really work all that well - especially not in crowded bars - it probably really isnt really the same in your town with a whole 12 smokers in a big room - few hundred people crammed into a small bar on a friday/saturday night & youll get a lot of smokers & still end up smelling of smoke regardless of the big extractor system on roof. Not as bad as some local pub type setup but it still doesnt work.  

Quote from: Beaker

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: BeakerThe pub isnt your living room, its the landlord/landladys.  If they want to allow smoking then they should be able to, however if i was invited round to your house I either wouldnt smoke, or i would go outside for a cig, i wouldnt even ask you if i could smoke in the house.  Hell i even have a nasty habit of asking if people mind me smoking in my OWN house!

The no smoking ban is still for the protection of employees, not non-smoking people buying drinks. Perhaps you would like everyone else to go outside, including the staff while you smoked?

read up the thread, comments about knowing the risks and supplying relevant PPE :)

There isnt always a choice for the staff and its law in other buildings, this just brings some of those left out into line.

Now that everyone is smoking outside, to get into any indoor establishment you have to run the gauntlet of all the smokers first before you can get in.

Then theres the issue of where some places dont have the nicer ashtrays and just have a bucket full of fags outside the door, plus the fact everyone is just smoking outside now means thats all I can smell walking up and down my street (there are about 3 bars to each street here) . . . much much better!

Probably just teething problems, Im not joining anti-smoking campaigns or anything (I used to be one, and I even had a last cigarette on Friday!), but at the moment it seems the only place to be safer from the "2nd hand smoke" is indoors - and as far away from windows and doors as possible.  :(