Quote from: nytimesThe Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret ââ,¬â€� thereââ,¬â,,¢s no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable ââ,¬â€� already a contradiction in terms ââ,¬â€� and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.

The congressman from memphis, Harold Ford Jr., who is currently running for the Senate, voted in favor of this bill. His opponent in this falls race paint him as "liberal".

This country has come to a place where a person that wants to outlaw same sex unions, claims that Christianity is the only way to find a moral compass, and thinks that we need modern gulags--this person is considered a radical lefty. With that sort of yardstick, whats a freakin moderate. :shock:

I literally ran into Ford Jr. yesterday at the First Tennessee building downtown yesterday. If Id known the way he was going to vote, Id have sucker punched him fastern you can swat a fly.

Sounds scary and fascist and will not deter terrorists but will lessen freedom
for normal people, so the terrorists won.

Exactly. Four years ago I would have winced a bit at the word, but as John Dean from the Nixon adminstration puts it, "The US is in a state of proto-facism".

Its to the point where I simply cant believe it.

5 years of Gitmo, and not a single trial, and no access to the court system. If thats not a gulag, wtf is?

Senator Feingold speak out against the bill. Can you believe that this sane man is considered too "radical" to be a 2008 presidential candidate? :shock:

WTF is going on these days. So this means they can hoik anyone they like into custody, torture them to say anything (and not tell anyone they are there) and get away with it.

Do you think that the USA has lost sight of its constitution and is turning this into a very real Orwellian nightmare.

Cheers
Tongy

The problem is power. The American Constitution is very very careful to set up a set of checks and balances. The US is nominally a democracy on a local level and a Republic on a national one. Anyway, this system of checks has failed as the Republicans, in name only might I add, have taken control of the courts, both houses of congress, the Supreme Court, and the Executive branch. These are not normal conservatives, they are amalgamated with the fundamentalist christian (small "c" intended) right. They are completely ideological in nature. Reality matters little. When a study by 15 different agencies was leaked a couple days ago showing clearly that the war in Iraq has dramatically stimulated violence, radicalism, and terror in the world,  Bush comes on TV and says basically, "Who are you going to believe, some studies, or me?"  [sic]

40% of the population has circled the wagons around the presidents cult of personality. Its gonna be difficult to dig the country out of this rut. I mean, its like talking to brick wall, with his supporters. I try to reason with them, explain that hes not your local football team, you can stop blindly cheering when he screws up...but this falls on deaf ears, or you get a canned response like, "why do you comfort the terrorists?" Kid you not. :shock:

80 years ago Sinclair Lewis saw it coming:

QuoteWhen fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross.

And after you guys its China.  At least they seem to be moving from human rights violations to sanity but seriously what the hell are your leaders up to lol.


Thats a horrible bill but whats worse is its not the most horrific of these memos/bills in recent history...

The recent US redefinition of what is classed as torture in the US so they can bypass clause 3 of the Geneva convention is even worse.  I will see if I can dig up a link but the summary was something like it has to include permanent incapacitating disfigurement.

The gist was you could snap someones limbs then twist them every day because eventually they would heal.  You can burn someone because their skin will regrow and scarring is not a incapacitating disfigurement.  Waterboarding (simulated drowning) is ok because the person cannot actually die from it they just feel they are drowning and about to any moment.  Sound torture is ok because mental insanity from sleep deprivation is not a physical disfigurement and they redefined the term which mental insanity must remain to be over a period of years, etc.

I remember people wondering about rape and molestation but its good to see the tail end of this new bill clarifies raping and sexually abusing prisoners is ok too -  phew.

Thats part of the bill. It gives the president the authority to "interpret" the Geneva Convention. Hes been going on as to how its "so old" and "unclear", so his intention in clarifying it is to enact legislation making him the definer.

Get that? :shock:

holy crap its the same bill?  Didnt sound as bad in the first post.  If its the one that redefines torture because its unclear in the geneva convention then you guys better get it thrown out fast.

Its a disgrace tbfh.

It went through. As I said, the congressman whos from Memphis and running for senator--the one whose adverts show him in a church sanctuary talking about morality--the one on the "left"--he voted for it. :shock: Quite clear why: hes a f**king little pussy who doesnt want it used against him on November second. Its all political grandstanding--grandstanding that pretty much removes any crumb of moral highground that this country ever had. Im very ashamed.

 :cry:

when you moving back to Europe man?

or is Canada looking like a nice place?

Nah, Ill stay here and throw molotov cocktails if it helps.

Tie dubya to a stake and burn him on the Whitehouse lawn... Its the Christian thing to do

Given the opportunity, Id love to extinguish his life with my bare hands.

At this juncture, Id like to say HI to my friends in the FBI and CIA! Just kidding boys!

[/funny strangling gesture]