So I've been asked if I can take photos of Kathryn playing some gigs...first one is this Sat in a small bar that does open mic nights.
I'm now faced with the question of what to take/use.
The 7D is pretty loud I think, but I have no option in that regards if I want decent photos.
But lenses...50mm prime or the 17-85mm IS lens. 50mm prime will offer better image quality but will be more limiting in terms of zoom and options, the 17-85 will be pretty slow, low light the IS will help but kathryn will be blurry, but I also will be more flexible in terms of where I can stand.
Also, any tips for low light stuff indoors at events?
I'm thinking I'm going to have to use live view + silent mode to be as quiet as I can. Likely going to need iso 800+
OK tips:
If possible take both lenses, but anticipate being limited to the 50 prime for shear speed. Our eyes are really good at dealing with low light so expect to be surprised at just how slow you'll have to go.
I don't know if the 7D has a similar option, but in this kind of situation I like to set my camera to what it calls TAv mode. That means you set the aperture and shutter speed, the camera sets the ISO. You may not have the specific mode but might be able to get the same effect by setting M mode and auto ISO. When set to this mode my camera displays the ISO in the viewfinder so I can keep an eye on what it's doing and adjust shutter speed/aperture as necessary to keep the ISO within acceptable limits.
Don't be afraid of high ISO. Particularly with your 7D, you've got options up to 12800 so as a guess I'd expect up to 3200 to be useable with some noise reduction in PP. Hell I've made very acceptable prints at smaller sizes from my K10D at ISO 1600 (its maximum) so with the more modern sensor in the 7D and a bit of cleverness you should be fine.
If it's apparent you're only going to be able to use the 50mm prime (quite likely unless the 17-85 is f/2.8) stand back as best you can and make use of the image quality advantage of the nifty 50 to crop in later.
If you can't get a shot without motion blur, don't try, use it to convey the passion or speed of the music. ie if she's playing a guitar a bit of blur on the strumming hand can be really effective. Takes a bit of timing and a lot of luck of course.
In my experience, if you want a portrait orientation shot, if possible still shoot landscape and crop later. I always find the camera easier to hold steady in landscape orientation. Unless of course you've got a battery grip with auxiliary controls in which case you can hold the camera whichever way round you like.
I'll bet whatever you get is better than anything she's had before. This kind of situation is where a good DSLR with a fast lens really pulls ahead of the compact crowd by sheer light gathering power and high ISO performance.
get a flash
Quote from: Eggtastico on January 28, 2011, 17:50:18 PM
get a flash
if he's worried about the noise of the shutter causing a disturbance, I'm guessing he doesn't want to use flash.
Cheers for that info. You're right about not being afraid of high iso's, I mean a noisy shot is better than no shot too.
I'm also still being surprised by the MP on the 7D, in terms of how much I can crop out and still have a usable image with whats left, compared to the 40D which had near half as much resolution.
I'll have to see if I can position myself at a location/angle that covers the stage whilst allowing for some movement, the venue is pretty small so I should be ok in terms of getting her in shot, would just be good to get other people in too.
Quote from: zpyder on January 28, 2011, 18:17:03 PM
I'm also still being surprised by the MP on the 7D, in terms of how much I can crop out and still have a usable image with whats left, compared to the 40D which had near half as much resolution.
I'll bet, with a good prime lens on I'm constantly amazed at how much cropping I can get away with even with my realtively meagre 10MP
This
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/thatguypinchedmyname/imgp3222_web.jpg)
was the central 2MP shot with a 90mm macro prime wide open at f/2.8. Obviously no where near as low light as you'll be in, but it is quite amazing what you can get away with in terms of cropping provided you don't want to print at poster size.
zpyder.... see if you can take some photos of the people who are on before her for some practice ;)
if you're worried about it, ask them if it's ok, and then email them the photos.... miss out the bit about it being practice ;)
She knows I dont do people...and its the first gig she's done in front of friends etc, so its all practice :D for both of us.
I was planning on doing the others too, doesn't hurt :D
Have you considered renting a lens? For special occasions, indoor low light or long zoom, something like the AFS 24-70mm f2.8 would only be £30 for a night.
Ive always found my 50mm really limiting, great for portraiture and i wouldn't give it up but when doing live stuff it results in a lot of the same shot, and depending on venue can end up being too long or short with nothing you can do about it.
Trying to work out if i want to take my DSLR out to a club for a birthday tomorrow.
so what kind of band is she in zpyder ?
Quote from: knighty on January 28, 2011, 22:35:26 PM
so what kind of band is she in zpyder ?
bare naked ladies tribute band :tinhat: :heehaw: :heehaw: :heehaw:
If you're going to shoot with the prime, position is everything so use the previous bits to work out the best angles / positions for your lenses + not going too smashed about etc. Then, when your girlie is on stage, use your elbows to get back to that spot. :ptu:
Sounds like a tough environment to take photos in
I assume you'll be using the tripod? lol hand held will be a nightmare
Probably have to wind the ISO up and use some noise reduction later
She's doing solo acoustic stuff.
I've thought about lens renting, but I don't think this gig warrants it, not yet. Bit like learning to play a new instrument using a really expensive one, you won't get your moneys worth till you get some practice in. I might end up doing a colleagues wedding later in the year and I might suggest to them if they could pay for lens rental and thats it. She's only just starting out on the solo gigs and I'm only just starting out doing people so it should all be good.
No tripod, I'll just use high iso, should be ok at ISO 800 I think (or more if needed, it goes up to uber-noisy 13200 (i think thats it)) and noise reduction. I'll be shooting in raw so I'll have a bit of freedom, and there's tables and chairs to use as pseudo-tripods.
I'll start on the prime, as I'll be getting there with her, before the open mic night starts proper, it'll give me a chance to see what kind of range I have. It's quite a narrow and short venue so if I can hug the wall and have 6' of forward/back movement I think that'll do. If I can't get back enough to get some of the stage in I'll just have to switch to the 17-85mm. If necessary I'll sell the 17-85 and some other tat to get a better lens, the 17-85mm is F4 I think.
Sounds like a plan. Is quite a fun type of photography, if not a little challenging! Have really had one attempt and ended up with the shots below which I sort of like, gonna invest in a nifty fifty myself though and try having a go with that.
PS You will be back to this thread with pics to show us how you got on, right? ;)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/4997258036_aa94bfbfe7.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccsawyer/4997258036/)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/4996650335_730e0ecedf.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccsawyer/4996650335/)
still waiting for pics.....
but it's ok if you don;t want to post them, don;t want to pressure you into it!
(might want to ask her first too)
I had a g/f who went ubber nuts after she found a photo on here i posted asking for the light to be fixed in it....
tho i think she was more freaked out by the "she's fit" and "knighty does girls 5 at a time" type replies :o
another tip, don't be hyper critical of shots taken in this sort of situation. It's a really hard type of shot to get so chances are they wont be as crisp and perfectly focussed as you might normally expect. Not to say don't aim for perfection, just don't expect to necessarily achieve it.
1) DON'T USE A ZOOM LENS they won't allow enough light in
2 A 50mm F/1.8 is adequate and the cheapest option, but you will find a f/1.4 a brighter option.
3) A 100mm or 135mm F/2 will enable you to take the pictures from further away.
4) Use shutter priority and go for at least 1/30th of a second with a 50mm, 1/125th with a longer lens.
5) Take lots of photographs, don't expect all of them to come out perfect.
The main issues are speed of action and ambient lighting rather than noise. A shutter might be an issue during a fairly quiet classical piece but not during a heavy rock gig. Avoid flash if at all possible.
Check your photos, preferably before the gig ends, just in case.
If the photos are bad you can also 'cheat' by getting the performer back after the gig, positioning them, and taking photos while they are standing still.
Photos uploading as we speak...
Bit hit and miss tbh. Took ~ 250 photos, there were 3 performers...the organiser, then Kathryn, and then some other guy. I'd say there's a definite improvement in the photos during the night.
Luckily where we were sat was just far enough away for the 50mm to be ok. Could have done with an extra metre or two but the venue was small, and there were actually a fair few people in there. I think next time I'll try for some more angles, as it was I was limited to being sat behind my table or standing up, which I did later on. The next gig is in a few weeks and is a solo-artist battle of the bands type of thing, so I should have more opportunity to take loads of photos.
I'm tempted by the F2.8 28mm prime that is only about £130...I know F2.8 isn't great, but it's wide and is still better than my 17-85mm.
So here we are...figured I'd do them in rough order to see if others agree they got better as they were going along..
First act
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5408514034_1d9727ca0c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408514034/)
Andy1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408514034/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Kathryns guitar on a table, didn't have long as she was just setting up, I think it'd have been a good shot if in focus ><
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5408541766_bdf4bf4f55.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408541766/)
Guitar (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408541766/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
And the amazing lass herself...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5408072005_f0db1398ed.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408072005/)
K2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408072005/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5408606300_2fa6c634ed.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408606300/)
K5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408606300/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Low angle = good...table corner = bad
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5407977025_a05f20ae8d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5407977025/)
K7 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5407977025/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Final act, I think these ones came out the best
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5213/5408105727_29ef465e13.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408105727/)
Xander1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408105727/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/5408699092_ba632ebc4a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408699092/)
Xander2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5408699092/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
nice photos, and ncie g/f
the first photo threw me there.... i looked at the photo before I read the bit about it being the first act and not actually her :o
I think part of it is that because last guy is standing up you have managed to get a slightly low angle without ending up with the table corner in shot.
Also the exposure is better on the last two. I think that may be because Katherines guitar is white, which is fooling the meter a bit.
Of the shots of her, compositionally I like K5 (middle one) best, although if it were mine I'd have a go at cloning out the table corner. It's a bit flat looking colour wise though, I'd have a look at the raw (assuming you shot raw) and see if you can bring the exposure up a bit and tweek the curves. Downside is that will bring out more noise, but I think it might be worth it.
As far as gigs in small venues go that one looks fairly well lit... might post some of mine up tomorrow - first gig I tried to do was very very dark basically could only use the 50 1.8
Zpyder, you are getting a bit of a yellow cast on some of them, actually very common with artificial lighting. Worth adjusting the colour balance at least.
The problem I have when I start adjusting white balance and the likes is that I tend to find I like odd colours, adjusting to "real" colours always makes the image seem bleary to me.
I've got some more photos from Sundays gig now, will process them and hope to have them up tonight.
if I was trying to correct the WB on these, I'd do an ink dropper WB on your lady friend's guitar then (assuming the lighting stayed constant throughout) use the results of that on all of them.
It can be very tricky to get WB right in some situations, especially if there are multiple types of light sources present.
I've just finished "her" photos from Sunday so will be posting them shortly. I tried ink dropping but it made the contrast go to hell for some reason. In Camera Raw though there's a temperature slider which I've tweaked on the current ones, hopefully they're better.
Another issue I think, is that at the previous venue, the lighting was pretty yellow as it was. At the one I'm about to post it was much darker and green/blue.
with my camera (and I assume this is true of all Bayer pattern cameras to some extent) under tungsten light the gain on the blue channel ends up very high. There's nothing much that can really be done about this, it's just a fact of life, but it means your blue channel ends up effectively at a substantially higher ISO than the green or red.
I've been known to separate the channels in GIMP and do more aggressive noise reduction separately on the blue channel only for shots I really like under poor lighting.
The reason I mention this is it could be what's causing your contrast to go washy when you correct the WB. You could be ending up with crazy speckly noise all over the place in blue only. Levels or curves adjustment might help.
Here we go, they should roughly be in order of when I took things:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5212/5448586367_a7c21c1b85.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448586367/)
IMG_1732 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448586367/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5054/5449209074_564d59a078.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449209074/)
IMG_1734 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449209074/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5296/5448613867_23f4424002.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448613867/)
IMG_1753 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448613867/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Wanted to try and get a shot from the left, but the sound guy, gig organiser and some pillars were in the way, but it did create this alternative shot...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5060/5449227418_771b994b19.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449227418/)
IMG_1759 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449227418/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5449248842_5c876490a0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449248842/)
IMG_1792 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449248842/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/5448650681_a071687312.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448650681/)
IMG_1799 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448650681/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/5448661947_6e289319da.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448661947/)
IMG_1866 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5448661947/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5132/5449282650_159d9da41b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449282650/)
IMG_1919 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449282650/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/5449295172_7a261e9923.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449295172/)
IMG_1941 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449295172/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
This was at the end when she'd made a mistake on the looping pedals and stopped playing, though it caught her smiling and laughing it off
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5291/5449314984_df3c08ac84.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449314984/)
IMG_1967 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5449314984/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Tempted to take the 100mm macro to see how it goes tomorrow, same venue, but whereas it was pretty empty on Sunday we were told by the sound guy the last competition night the venue was packed.
Here are some of sundays photos. I think easily the 100mm is the best lens to use unless the dimensions of the venue dictate otherwise. I got to chat with the "Professional" that was there and swapped lenses with him at one point, he liked the 100mm, and I though his 70-300mm he let me use was pretty cool (though pretty heavy).
First act, "May Day" The expressions of the drummer guy are priceless, most of my shots make him look like a total pyscho.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5171/5458538747_12819e6799.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458538747/)
IMG_2386 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458538747/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5459143838_7951a7bb14.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459143838/)
IMG_2400 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459143838/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5459139292_3399ca8cbc.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459139292/)
IMG_2433 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459139292/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5251/5459132502_35f3fe6a3b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459132502/)
IMG_2473 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459132502/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5459096968_069705c5d8.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459096968/)
IMG_2501 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459096968/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Second Act "Ant Henson" - Guitar and harmonica.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5458495731_83894decfb.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458495731/)
IMG_2623 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458495731/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5459096418_aa35cb1811.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459096418/)
IMG_2495 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459096418/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5458468519_e71100a512.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458468519/)
IMG_2641 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458468519/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5458471119_f47f8aa84c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458471119/)
IMG_2627 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458471119/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/5458458015_0fd8723c01.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458458015/)
IMG_2682 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458458015/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
3rd Act, Sarah Griffin
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5058/5458449007_ac1a994ff2.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458449007/)
IMG_2722 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458449007/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
And Kathryn
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5458416341_6f0d08333a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458416341/)
IMG_2838 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458416341/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5093/5459006090_a9b5e830d9.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459006090/)
IMG_2926 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459006090/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5020/5459011354_c17c21f066.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459011354/)
IMG_2899 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5459011354/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5098/5458386123_1daea25957.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458386123/)
IMG_3011 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458386123/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219/5458986288_2db9e01eae.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458986288/)
IMG_3081 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458986288/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5093/5458377131_e93cfa2f2d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458377131/)
IMG_3106 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zpyder/5458377131/) by Chris_Moody (http://www.flickr.com/people/zpyder/), on Flickr
Am I right in thinking that the gig photos are getting better, or am I imagining it? Any comments on this and the other gigs shots?
nice photos, and there's a definite improvement as you go on... and I don't know a thing about photography, so if I can see the difference it must be real?
Really good work mate, it's definitely getting better, and the images are really clear, it's making it a little more tempting for me to upgrade my 500 to the 7D, as it's processor is much better.
It's likely I'm going to be doing my mates gig soon, but there is a lot less light that's my only concern, so will be using the 50mm prime, what lens was the 300mm that you used was it L glass? Just wondering how my 70-200 L will do really :)
Cheers guys.
An interesting side note is noise and facebook. Those shots I think were either ISO 3200 or 6400 (I probably could have gotten away with 2000-3200 but didn't want to risk it). I de-noised some, but left the rest. When I uploaded as standard to facebook, the photos were the noisiest images I've ever seen. Something to do with FB's compression creating noise-like artifacts I think. I deleted the album and uploaded in HQ at uni yesterday though and the noise is now (mostly) gone :D
I think the 70-200L will be my next lens...actually, thinking about it, if I can get rid of this unwanted second Tamron 17-50mm, and my EF-S Canon 17-85mm, I might just be able to afford one...
As to the pro's lens, I didn't catch what it was exactly, just sigma 70-300mm, will have a look at their range and see whether anything looks/sounds right. I was surprised when he commented it was near a grand, would have thought at that money he would have been better off with an L...
EDIT:
Maybe I was mistaken, as I can't see anything "good" by sigma that is in the 70-300mm range, pretty sure it was 300 and not 200mm too, strange. I'll be seeing him again no doubt either at the results party next month or before...
Sigma do a 70-200 f/2.8 which would be a good choice for gig photography, they also do a 100-300 f/4 which I would argue is on the long and slow side although it is supposed to be a fantastic lens.
If you get yourself a 70-200 f/2.8 L you'll never want to take it off the camera if what I've heard is true, they don't come cheap though. Sigma and Tamron both make equivalents which would be well worth looking at.
I have the 70-200 F4 L, which I don't thinks really going to be quick enough, although apature isn't everything, as it's much quicker than some of the other lenses I have used at F4, but it's fatter and better glass so obviously lets in more light
the coatings do make a difference, my old SMC Pentax-M 50mm f/2 measures about half a stop faster than a cheap Chinon 50mm f/1.9. Canon L series glass is going to have pretty darned good coatings and they're going to be on every interface. The other thing is that the f stops are often approximate, as actually are the focal lengths, so the marketing department will make it sound as good as they can get away with. I'd expect less liberties to be taken with the specs on a top flight lens like an L than might be to try and make the new Canon kit zoom sound somehow better than its Nikon counterpart.
up to a point the weight helps too, obviously too heavy and you can't lift the thing but the lens/camera combo having some heft to it helps you hold it steady.