The quest for a nice diesel has ended, with me gettng a lovely 406 1.9 GLX DT for 630 notes...
On the downside tho, i seem to have noticed that it doesnt like starting when its hot, and needs a lot of turns of the engine and pumping of the accelerator to get it going.
Any ideas?
Could be taking air in somewhere, or fuel is running back from the injector pump - non return valve, or fuel filter housing shagged. Worst case scenario - injector pump.
To be honest, an XUD that has hot starting problems is not worth wasting your time on...There are a lot more out there for the same class of money that work properly (Look at the Xantia over the 406, it has better suspension and brakes, and is built a lot better, and youll get one cheaper)
Check the valve clearances
Quote from: filbertCheck the valve clearances
on hydraulic tappets? (iirc they are on the later models).
Just asked a dude i know, he suggested the similar to Mark, but also mentioned that the Turbo gate sometimes gets starts to stick on them if the car has been used for lots of short runs in the past, as opposed to letting it get up to temperature.
Valve clearance checking went out with the likes of Austin Allegros!
If the turbo wastegate is stuck (Quite unlikely) closed then boost will not stop at the correct level, but this is extremely unlikely.
Does it start striaght away once stopped but not after being left for like 30 minutes?
I hope it isnt your pump, but if it is, you can get them reconditioned. You might also be lucky and get a second hand one - is it the bosch or lucas? Remember that all citroens and peugeots with the 1.9TD use the same engine (Albeit with slight differences for the BX and Xantia for the hydraulic pump) so youre sorted for plenty of spares.
Quote from: MarkIf the turbo wastegate is stuck (Quite unlikely) closed then boost will not stop at the correct level, but this is extremely unlikely.
Aparrently while its not common its not unusual. The dude i asked said its down to the engine never getting hot enough due to short runs and crap in the fuel.
The wastegate opening hasnt anything to do with temperature - its opened as soon as boost reaches a predetermined level. A popular modification (Depending on whether you have the garett or kkk - is increasing the pressure at which the wastegate opens - as simple as turning a screw. A small adjustment is then required at the pump.
The fuel filter is there to get all the sh*te out of the fuel, one thing that quickly blocks it is the use of poor quality biodiesel.
as described to me : when the engine doesnt get hot enough it doesnt burn properly it thrown unburnt fuel out of the engine, that usually end up being left on any surface that is available. When the engine gets hot it normally then burns off again. But if the engine isn;t given the chance to warm up then the crap just builds up and never gets cleaned off.
Im not the person who spends his days with his head under the bonnot of cars, and turbos arent something I personally would mess around with anyway. Gearboxes, Turbos and Crank Bearings are things for other people to do :)
ok then dont, sorry for such a stupid suggestion :bowdown:
The advice in my Ford handbook for diesel hot start is to keep the accelerator pressed down continually until it catches (not pump it).
i must admit i was secretely hoping youd just say
"change the glow plugs and it will be fine"
:lol:
Oh well, looks like i will ave to live with it, as i picked it up for cheap and cant afford any better for a while :(
what does it idle like?
Sounds like a bag of sh*te, but idles at about 850 RPM and drives lovely, pulls nice and doesnt miss or anything.
do the heater plugs stay on for the same amount of time if the engine is hot or cold ?
noticed on my bm, if the engine is hot they dont run / run for a shorter time.... ? (clutching at straws here tbh)
The glow plugs have nothing to do with it when its warm tbh - its more likely fuel starvation caused by either air ingress or fuel running back from the pump.
Check the non return valve out - thats most likely and cheapest to fix.
Then check for air ingress, and lift pump operation.
Lastly if she is a very high miler, its likely just to be plain wear on the injector pump letting the fuel leak back.
A good test is to prime it when hot before you start it - if it starts first turn when you prime it, the fuel is running back, or theres an air leak.
Quote from: Markits more likely fuel starvation caused by either air ingress or fuel running back from the pump.
But would this not happen when the engine is also cold?
Quote from: MarkThe glow plugs have nothing to do with it when its warm tbh
I was thinking maybe hes leaving it 20 min so its not quite Hot (just warm) so it needs a little heat ;)
chris, when you say HOT..... does it do it if you turn it off and start it right up again when its hot ?
the real problem is, that theres no problem when its cold :o
id think any fule/air leak problem would be even more pronounced when cold (and its been left a long time)
the turbo will make no difference to the starting, wastgate jammed fully open or fully closed should make no difference at starting revs ? )or close enough to nothing anyway)
unless....... the timine is out ?
or.... how long have you had it ? maybe someone before you put petrol in it ?
petrol in the diesel and it will pretty much run ok cold, but when its hot youll get pre-detonation due to the heat and pressure in a diesel engine and the lower heat/pressure detonation point of petrol ?
Quote from: filbertQuote from: Markits more likely fuel starvation caused by either air ingress or fuel running back from the pump.
But would this not happen when the engine is also cold?
No- if it is wear on the pump the hotter the car gets the more fuel will leak by and the less efficient it will be at drawing diesel - remember the pistons and pump housing are made out of two different types of metal (Steel and aluminum)
There is also a cold start system that makes starting from cold easier on the XUD (As with all diesels) - this also would make it easier to start when temperature is low or if it has been sitting.
Also, If there is a fault with the injectors they may well need the glowplugs to start easier, and the hotter the car gets the less time the plugs are lit for.
There is another very simple cause - slow cranking speed caused by a bollocksed motor.
Quote from: knightyQuote from: MarkThe glow plugs have nothing to do with it when its warm tbh
I was thinking maybe hes leaving it 20 min so its not quite Hot (just warm) so it needs a little heat ;)
chris, when you say HOT..... does it do it if you turn it off and start it right up again when its hot ?
the real problem is, that theres no problem when its cold :o
id think any fule/air leak problem would be even more pronounced when cold (and its been left a long time)
the turbo will make no difference to the starting, wastgate jammed fully open or fully closed should make no difference at starting revs ? )or close enough to nothing anyway)
unless....... the timine is out ?
or.... how long have you had it ? maybe someone before you put petrol in it ?
petrol in the diesel and it will pretty much run ok cold, but when its hot youll get pre-detonation due to the heat and pressure in a diesel engine and the lower heat/pressure detonation point of petrol ?
If you get enough petrol in it it will destroy the injector pump - diesel is what lubricates the pump - Ive seen many a siezed pump from morons who have put petrol in to clean the injectors
well I started it hot monday morning when i went to work - pulled up after a 30min drive, turned engine off, went to get a car pass for a minuite or 2, then got back in, plugged in the code, waited for the glow plug lamp to go off, and started up without a problem... maybe took about a second more than it does when cold.
On friday, however, it wouldnt start for love nor money after about a 30-40 minute wait... but im not sure if that was just where i had buggered up the immobiliser sequence :lol:
That afternoon, too, it had had struggled to start after about a 4hr wait which i thought was unusual. it seems to be imporving as i build up a relationship with the car though.
The first thing to do is get rid of the immobiliser - the 406 one gives an awful lot of bother
Quote from: MarkNo- if it is wear on the pump the hotter the car gets the more fuel will leak by and the less efficient it will be at drawing diesel - remember the pistons and pump housing are made out of two different types of metal (Steel and aluminum)
But doesnt the 406 have a rotary injection pump?(not an inline with pistons)
Im still stuck in the tractor age - havent used inline pumps for years.
That was an if after all!
But the fact that there is a cold start system allows for hot starting issues. as does the ball bearing on a spring non return valve...
doesen;t the cold start on a diesel just advance the timeing slightly ?
I guess if it was permenantly enguages it could cause hot start problems like he described ?
after 5 min of engine off, its hot enough to start anyway
after 30 min its cooling and wont start
after an hour its cool enough to start ?
(bit of a wild guess tbh)
The cold start increases the idle speed as well - if you look on the bosch pump while its warming you can see the cable slacken.
if its REALLY cold it also advances the timing.