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Chat => Entertainment & Technology => Topic started by: Rivkid on April 29, 2008, 10:02:36 AM

Title: GTA 4
Post by: Rivkid on April 29, 2008, 10:02:36 AM
yet again my trusty local tesco provides! 26 copies on 360, 21 on PS3 - managed to grab a 360 copy with about 4 left!
Had to queue about 20 mins which was 20 mins less than my mate had to queue at Blockbuster to collect his pre order!

Played it for about 10 mins last night - seems pretty good. Will give it a proper run tonight.

* had to start a new thread - wouldnt let me post in the existing one...?
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: jamieL on April 29, 2008, 10:16:05 AM
Im still waiting for mine!

Pre-ordered it from Game ages ago to get delivered to my house and it hasnt arrived yet. Dont start college til 11 today too so was planning on getting a few hours in in the morning!

It better arrive during the day!
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on April 29, 2008, 10:51:01 AM
Im 20 hours in and have completed 34.79% of the game, so its fair to say its pretty deep!
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Clock'd 0Ne on April 29, 2008, 10:56:49 AM
Matt how are you finding the improved control/aiming system?
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: TheMallrat on April 29, 2008, 11:23:12 AM
Quote from: jamieLIm still waiting for mine!

Pre-ordered it from Game ages ago to get delivered to my house and it hasnt arrived yet. Dont start college til 11 today too so was planning on getting a few hours in in the morning!

It better arrive during the day!

Also had mine ordered on the Game website last year, and still waiting on delivery. I was tempted to go try and grab a copy when the shops opened this morning but as Im a little low on cash I decided against it. Looks like I made the wrong decision.
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Deaths Head on April 29, 2008, 11:26:50 AM
My copy came at 10am along with 1000 ms points courtesy of HMV :)

Its pretty good.  The pop up in the 360 version that is mentioned in the reviews is not an issue imo.  If you have played Mass Effect then you know what to expect, though not as bad.  Load times so far have been ok.  
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on April 29, 2008, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: Clockd 0NeMatt how are you finding the improved control/aiming system?

The aiming system is a bit fiddly and has irritated me on more than one occasion.

If you gently hold the trigger its free aim, if you press hard it looks onto enemies, however you can be pointing at a guy with free aim, hold to lock on and it will lock onto someone else  :gag:

You can turn this off and stick with free aim mind :ptu:
Title: GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on April 29, 2008, 11:30:55 AM
Quote from: Deaths HeadMy copy came at 10am along with 1000 ms points courtesy of HMV :)

Its pretty good.  The pop up in the 360 version that is mentioned in the reviews is not an issue imo.  If you have played Mass Effect then you know what to expect, though not as bad.  Load times so far have been ok.  

I have had it before where Ive walked into a room (weapon shop) and its been literally completely black! (obviously comes back after a few secs)

However my drive is flashed at 5x so this may be the cause as to why I get a bit more pop than usual :)

I get my ps3 spec edition delivered today so will be interesting to see how they compare 8-)
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on April 30, 2008, 04:09:04 AM
Umm, why another thread?

Im loving it so far, played about 7% in singleplayer and a few rounds of team deathmatch/free mode. So awesome and chaotic. :D Cover system takes some getting used to, but other than that Id say its surpassed even my wildest expectations.

Game of the Year? Absolutely.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Rivkid on April 30, 2008, 09:40:21 AM
Quote from: skidzillaUmm, why another thread?



Said in OP - the forum wouldnt let me post in the other one.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: jamieL on April 30, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
Im really really loving this game! Started playing at about half 5 last night (knowing I dont have work in the morning) and finished at about 1am, when I realised what time it was. (of course, with regular breaks, etc. :) ... ie. food breaks)

Absolutely brilliant! Havent tried multiplayer out yet though.


I really laughed at the fact if you slam into something very hard and very fast, you shoot through the windscreen. Tut tut, wheres your seatbelt!

And the cars handle.. not exactly realistic! The lean you get is stupid, but very fun. I like the new felony system too to escape it.


It really is exactly as the reviews have described it. "perfectly polished"
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Kunal on April 30, 2008, 11:51:00 AM
Played it last night at my cousins place. A landmark I say!

Theyve really outdone themselves.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 01, 2008, 07:37:01 AM
Queen!! soon as I heard them on the rock radio I turned it up very load and just drove around for a bit :)
Watching Ricky J on the TV talking about holding midgets at arms length as well was amusing
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Beaker on May 01, 2008, 07:48:27 AM
PLaying it at work while doing X-Box training I got Sisters on the Radio.  Big Thumbs Up!
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: TheMallrat on May 01, 2008, 10:25:15 AM
Had to head down to Gamestation yesterday morning to get a copy of the standard edition, for £45 :x, as my special edition seems to have been lost in the post. Despite this very big annoyance, I am loving the game. Im 10 hours in and 20% done at the min, just doing some car collecting for Brucie now.
Title: GTA 4
Post by: DeltaZero on May 01, 2008, 11:37:25 AM
Does anyone else find the driving has changed significantly from 3? Im crashing all the time
Title: GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 01, 2008, 11:48:29 AM
Quote from: DeltaZeroDoes anyone else find the driving has changed significantly from 3? Im crashing all the time

The driving has changed a lot for good and better reasons..
A bit more realistic for a start as well as not being off or go in the sense that if you want to drive properly holding down the Accelerator is not a good idea and a number of the aspects of driving games are more into the driving. Breaking for example has to be more realistic on your part.
Try driving like a racing game, think more like foza and you can drive better.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 01, 2008, 12:51:47 PM
As soon as you can, fly to the statue of happiness. Theres a creepy surprise inside. Very twisted, but very cool. :)
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on May 01, 2008, 14:38:14 PM
Quote from: skidzillaAs soon as you can, fly to the statue of happiness. Theres a creepy surprise inside. Very twisted, but very cool. :)

Ill give it a try over the w/e all I need to know now is, where said statue is :)
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Pete on May 01, 2008, 22:17:45 PM
What was that "getting too old of games" thread?

You know youre too old for games when you think; GTA4? lol.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: DEViANCE on May 02, 2008, 19:47:38 PM
played a few hours this afternoon and it is very good, not as good as san andreas i dont think but im only on 5% complete so might change my mind.

bit too dark for my liking and the physics on the cars is terrible.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: TheMallrat on May 02, 2008, 21:16:09 PM
Quote from: DEViANCEplayed a few hours this afternoon and it is very good, not as good as san andreas i dont think but im only on 5% complete so might change my mind.

bit too dark for my liking and the physics on the cars is terrible.

I agree about the cars, but not about san andreas being better. I got bored of san andreas after a few hours, didnt even get past the first island, whereas Ive played around 30 hours of GTA 4 already. Its a much better game than SA. There just seems to be much more to do in GTA4 and so much detail has been put into it.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 02, 2008, 23:53:25 PM
I am fine with the driving I can drive better if you play it more like a driving game and less like the previous ones.

We should arrange some multiplayer at some point
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Liam on May 03, 2008, 16:22:12 PM
Damn i sooo wish i could play this game!!! :( sadly i havent got a PS3 or 360, hopefully in the next few weeks il get myself a 360 along with GTA 4 :)

Liam
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 03, 2008, 19:11:05 PM
I had fog for the first time yesterday - wow that looked good, Cost $70 but picked up a hooker off the street to see if I got an unlock
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Mongoose on May 04, 2008, 00:00:17 AM
Quote from: LiamDamn i sooo wish i could play this game!!! :( sadly i havent got a PS3 or 360, hopefully in the next few weeks il get myself a 360 along with GTA 4 :)

Liam

I share your pain Liam, kinda hoping my housemate is going to get one or the other, then Ill get GTAIV and re-discover my mis-spent youth
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 04, 2008, 02:01:26 AM
http://www.videogamer.com/features/article/29-04-2008-389.html
360 vs PS3 versions
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Dave on May 04, 2008, 18:15:48 PM
Quote from: TheMallratI agree about the cars, but not about san andreas being better. I got bored of san andreas after a few hours, didnt even get past the first island, whereas Ive played around 30 hours of GTA 4 already. Its a much better game than SA. There just seems to be much more to do in GTA4 and so much detail has been put into it.

surely you cant compare the two when youve done naff all in san andreas?
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: TheMallrat on May 04, 2008, 20:56:32 PM
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: TheMallratI agree about the cars, but not about san andreas being better. I got bored of san andreas after a few hours, didnt even get past the first island, whereas Ive played around 30 hours of GTA 4 already. Its a much better game than SA. There just seems to be much more to do in GTA4 and so much detail has been put into it.

surely you cant compare the two when youve done naff all in san andreas?

Its easy to compare them, GTA4 grabbed my attention right from the off and is still holding my attention after 40 hours, whereas SA held my attention for probably about 5-10 before I got bored with having to keep my guy in shape and stop him from being hungry, and all that other crap that put me off the game. Just because I didnt play SA as long doesnt mean I cant comment on it.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Dave on May 04, 2008, 21:04:35 PM
Quote from: TheMallratJust because I didnt play SA as long doesnt mean I cant comment on it.

I didnt say you cant comment I said you cant really compare them - I mean for the sake of argument how do you know if the missions on the third island wouldnt have pushed your buttons?

All you can really state is that you preferred the first 15% or so of GTAIV  or that you disliked a particular aspect of GTA San Andreas you experienced - you cant compare both games as a whole as you havent got experience of both games - youve just got a first impression; using that as a basis for comparison of both games which is a flawed position to start from.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: jamieL on May 05, 2008, 17:22:49 PM
Quote from: neXusI had fog for the first time yesterday - wow that looked good, Cost $70 but picked up a hooker off the street to see if I got an unlock


Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: DEViANCE on May 05, 2008, 18:13:34 PM
Im getting the hang of driving now, i think its much easier to drive from the interior cam.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 06, 2008, 01:27:57 AM
Music In GTA4 You have heard

- Kanye West 0 Flashing Lights of course is the big one
- Queen - Forgot the song
- REM
- David Bowie
- Super Nature (forgot by who, old song)
- In the movie the silence of the Lambs when the guy id dancing putting his makeup on (the nutter) the music that is in the background is on
-Thin Lizzy I have heard
- Bob Marley
- The Who
- Busta Rhymes I think
- Defo R.kelly, cant miss that
- Was supprised to here Elton John
- ZZ top was well
Not sure on the other R&B stuff etc but these are songs I have heard so far

Can not believe there is so much packed even on the 360 game disc and even well known people and songs and the rights to get to use them.


Extras:
I have not played the whole game but the fair and the mini golf and the big rides are all not useable so if they are not open later in the game (avoided reading about such things and enjoying the game so sorry if they are there) I can see as well as being new missions I can see such mini games being opened up in the exclusive content.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 06, 2008, 04:21:30 AM
idiot alert: http://www.flabber.nl/archief/023958.php

Oh - one feature I really really really miss is considering how good it looks and all the things you can do in the game and multiplayer they did not add a video record or image capture feature. They should have done this as you could have so many cool videos and images going on.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 06, 2008, 13:03:43 PM
anyone want to form an online group to do car jack city, cops and robbers games?
Set a regular meet and play time?
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: Cypher on May 06, 2008, 23:17:32 PM
Quote from: TheMallrat
Quote from: Dave
Quote from: TheMallratI agree about the cars, but not about san andreas being better. I got bored of san andreas after a few hours, didnt even get past the first island, whereas Ive played around 30 hours of GTA 4 already. Its a much better game than SA. There just seems to be much more to do in GTA4 and so much detail has been put into it.

surely you cant compare the two when youve done naff all in san andreas?

Its easy to compare them, GTA4 grabbed my attention right from the off and is still holding my attention after 40 hours, whereas SA held my attention for probably about 5-10 before I got bored with having to keep my guy in shape and stop him from being hungry, and all that other crap that put me off the game. Just because I didnt play SA as long doesnt mean I cant comment on it.

I have to agree, Im probably about 20% into the game and Im really enjoying it, the characters are interesting, Niko is a great character despite his layed back appearance.  The story is enticiing.  It does draw you in.

The driving is so much better, I think the little addidtions have made such a difference, the mobile phone, being able to hail taxis.  Rag doll physics, I think my shortest mission involved being crushed between 2 cars lol. Theyve taken away some of the pointless crap that became mandatory as Mallray mentions, i.e food and exercise, it might as well been the sims.  Combat is so much less frustrating and much more enjoyable, blind firing a 12 guage in close quarters has never been so much fun.

Granted I cant give a final verdict yet but the way Its going I cant see this game dissapointing.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on May 07, 2008, 09:02:29 AM
Completed story over the weekend, done with the game for now, I dont want 100% completion as its utterly choca-block with annoying repetetive missions!

When my bros done using my ps3 Ill get that back off him and go online :)
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 08, 2008, 06:13:02 AM
Multiplayer will still keep you hooked long after youve done the story. I couldnt stop laughing during an Ice cream truck race I had. :D
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: DEViANCE on May 09, 2008, 16:32:06 PM
who does the dvd drive in the xbox? im getting f**king sick of these disk is unreadable errors, why do i have to be one of the only people with a V1.0 that hasnt RRoD!
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 10, 2008, 00:13:57 AM
Quote from: DEViANCEwho does the dvd drive in the xbox? im getting f**king sick of these disk is unreadable errors, why do i have to be one of the only people with a V1.0 that hasnt RRoD!

LOL, is it still under 3 years old? wrap it in towel and brick it.
It is the disk though, Rockstar seem to build their discs dodgy some how since bully has had problems, the ps3 bar the bugs seems to have people noticing it reading the disc hard and on the 360 people and me noting it a bit more noisy trying to read the disc. Compared to mass effect it is very noisy.

Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 11, 2008, 14:44:00 PM
The mission based on a certain movie beginning with H where H is a temperature is very cool, fun and a little challenging and a pig when you die during it, especially towards the end, grenades ftw.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 15, 2008, 11:28:58 AM
Indeed, some brilliant missions. That helicopter chase weaving through the city with Jacob and the RPG was exhilarating. :)
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 15, 2008, 11:46:33 AM
One beef I have is that you cant not see a limited car for ages, you finally find one and get it and like it and then every mother and their dog has the car. I got the evo car for the first time driving around and then stuck in traffic surrounded by 7 of the same car, lol.
Similarly when you are on foot looking for a car the game seems to think to chuck you some taxis which is fair enough but seems to go overboard and all you see is yellow.

I love when your drunk though and when you call a taxi

"HEY, YELLOW CAR!"
"AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRG"
and my fav - "HEY MRRRRRR MAAAAAAAAAAAN"
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: matt5cott on May 15, 2008, 12:19:35 PM
Quote from: neXusOne beef I have is that you cant not see a limited car for ages, you finally find one and get it and like it and then every mother and their dog has the car.

Yes I have had this, though not with the Infernus, thats rare regardless of how many you have :(
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 16, 2008, 05:46:10 AM
Bored, lost or just want to find something cool?
http://grandtheftauto.ign.com/maps/1/Liberty-City-Map
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: madmax on May 16, 2008, 19:29:04 PM
done the missions doh!

what to do now... maybe work on getting 6 starts now all the islands are unlocked
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: DEViANCE on May 16, 2008, 19:32:04 PM
Quote from: madmaxdone the missions doh!

what to do now... maybe work on getting 6 starts now all the islands are unlocked

you should have done that before you opened all islands, get a heli fly to an island you are not aloud at and instant 6stars, fly around for 5mins acheivment unlocked.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: madmax on May 16, 2008, 19:49:09 PM
nerra mind, might be able to do that with a new game ;)


more challenging to do it without though dont ya think??
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 19, 2008, 13:58:53 PM
Quote from: neXusMusic In GTA4 You have heard...
Glukoza Nostra - Schweine
Video is pretty funny too, very catchy tune. :)
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Poison_UK on May 20, 2008, 16:35:03 PM
Three Leaf Clover, what a pain in the arse mission!
Title: GTA 4
Post by: DEViANCE on May 20, 2008, 22:07:28 PM
Quote from: Poison_UKThree Leaf Clover, what a pain in the arse mission!

that the bank job one? i died on that a few times, havent bothered again for a couple of days. did it perfect right up to the subway, didnt even lose any armour and then got hit by a train :gag:  
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Poison_UK on May 20, 2008, 23:28:17 PM
Yeah that one, I got out of the train station then into a car and then I would of completed it but I dropped a grenade from the car and then got sandwiched and got caught in the pile of cars blowing up. Going to try again once more!
Title: GTA 4
Post by: madmax on May 20, 2008, 23:28:57 PM
ouch unlucky!
Title: GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 21, 2008, 00:13:48 AM
Quote from: DEViANCE
Quote from: Poison_UKThree Leaf Clover, what a pain in the arse mission!

that the bank job one? i died on that a few times, havent bothered again for a couple of days. did it perfect right up to the subway, didnt even lose any armour and then got hit by a train :gag:  
Yeah, had to do that again being hit by the first train on the left, a bike mission in subway - aaaarg later also  annoying
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: soopahfly on May 21, 2008, 12:58:10 PM
Same mission im on, then you get inconvenient things in the way, like work.
Title: GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 22, 2008, 03:28:04 AM
Check out the Travel guide for Americans website in one of the cybercafes, its hilarious. :lol:
Title: GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 22, 2008, 03:55:51 AM
Quote from: skidzillaCheck out the Travel guide for Americans website in one of the cybercafes, its hilarious. :lol:
It is small things, like the cut scenes in the prison

- Richard Head on a board in the background  :rofl:
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 22, 2008, 05:50:13 AM
Oh and for that mission, just call Kiki and have her remove your wanted level. :)
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Poison_UK on May 23, 2008, 00:56:15 AM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/48-Zero-Punctuation-Grand-Theft-Auto-IV


Possibly the funniest review I have seen yet!
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 23, 2008, 05:09:32 AM
ZP is always great. Its weird the trees are invincible.

Looks like Roman needs work... (http://news.filefront.com/gta-ivs-roman-is-looking-for-work/) :lol:
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 26, 2008, 00:07:40 AM
Niko Actor Interview:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/220382.html
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: XEntity on May 26, 2008, 00:32:23 AM
Completed the last mission yesterday, after giving it a week cooling of period as I was getting annoyed, the only mission I felt that actually challenged me! As most of the others you could complete in a couple of attempts! Now I feel empty inside :) spent the day moving cars around so I now have the porsche and the lambo at my main pad, that and shooting people up and flying round in the police copter from the station at the top of the middle island (BTW found the cops in that station standing round the beaten body funny!). Only thing left now is multilayer, played a bit of turf war, quite good fun especially when cruzing round in a car together.

Slightly disappointed that there is nothing to spend money on, want to buy a nice crib with a 10 car garage  :w00t:

Good game but once complete cant see me playing much more.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: neXus on May 26, 2008, 02:27:51 AM
Lot of things they could add in terms of the extra content on the 360. You got the driving range, you could add pedal bikes for the bike ramps, mini golf, the fair, more missions, new cars, buildings now opening up....


If and when they do vice city I hope they take on Niko again as everyone seems to love the character more then any other.
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on May 26, 2008, 07:18:39 AM
Quote from: XEntityGood game but once complete cant see me playing much more.
Even if I told you about the Car Cannon?
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: crazylegs on June 04, 2008, 08:28:51 AM
tried the car cannon - first time i tried it i did it facing frwards and niko flew out of the windscreen and ended up miles out in the sea!!
tried it few times since in reverse, he doesnt come through the screen but the car didnt travel as far.

any other hidden eggs that anyone knows off?

been a bit held up on the mission in the strip club - kill the 3 bosses.
but carried on with other missions for now - on "I Need Your Clothes Your Boots and Your Motorcycle" mission now
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: zpyder on June 30, 2008, 20:32:37 PM
Im busy playing through GTA at the moment. Have to say I am loving it much more than San Andreas. The assassination missions are pretty fun.

Took a while to get used to being back on the xbox, last time Id played anything was 6 months ago!
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Jaimz on July 01, 2008, 03:21:13 AM
Go to an internet café in game and log on to www.littlelacysurprisepageant.com

Hit up www.whattheydonotwantyoutoknow.com and youll get access to maps detailing where to find every stunt jump, health pack and diseased pigeon in the game, among other things.

To see Lady Happiness innermost secret for yourself, just hop inside a helicopter and fly out to Happiness Island. Once there, hover by her feet and bail out onto the normally inaccessible platform that supports them. Walk around the base, and you should see a sign that says "No Hidden Content this way". Walk through the door and youll see a ladder. Climb it all the way to the top, and youll be confronted with the secret...

Jaimz :rock:
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Edd on July 05, 2008, 13:19:42 PM
finally got around to playing GTA4, gotta admit im one of the people who thinks san andreas was a better game and it doesnt deserve a 10 on most of the review sites
Title: GTA 4
Post by: neXus on July 05, 2008, 13:29:37 PM
Quote from: Eddfinally got around to playing GTA4, gotta admit im one of the people who thinks san andreas was a better game and it doesnt deserve a 10 on most of the review sites

In what manner?
Got the game and plaid it all the way through? Or a 10 minute go round a friends house?
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Edd on July 05, 2008, 20:44:31 PM
nah not all the missions but im pretty far thru, i thought itd be sh*t hot but its not all that
Title: Re:GTA 4
Post by: zpyder on July 05, 2008, 23:01:16 PM
Took me a while to get used to being on a console again but after that Ive found I quite enjoy GTA4. Only just finished the story so am now working on doing the side missions and trying to get my friends to like me!
Title: GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on July 06, 2008, 01:15:04 AM
Dwayne is so emo.
Title: GTA 4
Post by: Edd on July 06, 2008, 01:20:37 AM
dwayne is pretty emo isnt he

"ITS NOT WORTH IT ANYMORE I CANT GO ON"
Title: GTA 4
Post by: skidzilla on July 17, 2008, 03:10:55 AM
For Example. after taking Dwayne out drinking (not exact quotes, but you get the idea):

Dwayne: "I lived on the streets maaan, never haaad nothing maaaan...I was a gaaaangster"

Niko: "I was stuck in a trench for three days with [nothing but] the rotting corpses of my friends and family piled on top of me, drinking only filthy puddle water"

Its like a competition to see who can be more tragic, except Niko wins every time. :lol: