Quote from: Cypher on August 11, 2011, 11:57:07 AM

Quote from: Russell on August 04, 2011, 21:15:07 PM
The onboard controller isn't really a proper raid system, it only does raid 0 or 1 and its not really a proper hardware raid either but not raid 5 so no real redundancy.  You can apparently connect it up the caddies to the a separate raid card but  you have take it completely apart.

I'll probably just do software raid in server 2003, there's very little chance of getting a cheap raid card but I have a look around, its going to be after christmas by the time I can afford the drives I reckon.

The onboard Raid isn't a proper raid system, its's not a proper hardware raid card.  I'll probably just do a software raid?

LOL?

Dedicated card or onboard with a controller chip, it's still a hardware RAID in my books.

But its not hardware RAID, I'm not using the onboard RAID card to create the array just to connect the drives, I'll be using Server 2003 hence its a software RAID.  Yes that's using the ports on the onboard hardware RAID but its not using the onboard RAID to manage the array.

I've looked for a RAID card but they're just too expensive so I'll not bother.

Ok so drivers for 2003:

NIC Driver -  http://www.broadcom.com/support/license.php?file=570x/win_xp_2k3_32-14.6.0.6a.zip taken from http://www.broadcom.com/support/ethernet_nic/netxtreme_server.php
AMD Processor Driver - http://support.amd.com/us/Pages/dynamicDetails.aspx?ListID=c5cd2c08-1432-4756-aafa-4d9dc646342f&ItemID=173&lang=us
Chipset & CPU - http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/embedded/Pages/embedded_windows_all.aspx think I've got the right one from a rather long list on http://wwwd.amd.com/AMD/SReleaseF.nsf/softwarepages/DriversbyDeviceChipset?OpenDocument

You'll need to have at least SP1 for 2003 on before installing the Processor Driver, which is a nice 372mb download, nice.

So far the only thing I haven't got the drivers quite right for is the graphics card, thought they'd be part of the Chipset & GPU package but obviously not quite hmm will have a better dig about over the weekend.

I'd think the onboard raid however it's run will still be faster/better than server2k3 raid ?

Software RAID is really efficient these days, in fact the basic onboard RAID jobbies usually still use CPU anyway, they don't have hardware chips for it, that's why they are cheap!

yeah... but I bet they still do some of the work right ?


actually... don't they only hand off the stuff like calculations for parity bits etc.. ?

I thought raid0 or raid1 stuff was handled by the cheap onboard chips now ?

it's not complicated splitting it between 2 disks or copying the same thing to both of them ?  - super simple in chip design really ?

I think it makes no difference for raid 0/1 as you say, there's no parity calculations. I get mixed reports from reading, but general consensus seems to be that there's no performance hit to using software raid 5 these days, as its coded very efficiently and CPUs are so fast now.

Given the limited options for these microservers I'd say software raid is fine!

nooo, what we're saying is....

what's better....

software raid as in cheap onboard raid
or
software raid as in raid run/controlled by the os

I'm saying might as well use the onboard for it.... because even tho it's "software raid" it does have a dedicated chip/controller and will be faster/better than raid controlled totaly by the os


I guess calling on board raid software raid isn't really right these days.... it's really hardware raid... which will pass off parity bit calculations to the CPU.... but do the rest itself ?

I might be wrong, but expect you are either doing one or the other so you could use either SW or HW 0 + 1, I expect hardware would be better..

However RAID 5 isn't supported in the hardware raid, so expect this will run in entirely software mode? (The onboard chip will just see the drives as standard drives not an array?)

I think we're getting confused (I know I am)? For most onboard/motherboard RAID controllers that do basic 0 + 1 + JBOD they still pass any overhead across to the CPU usually, its usually only expensive add-in cards that have battery buffers, etc that will have dedicated on board arithmetic units for RAID 5 parity and such.

For basic RAID levels I don't see any reason to choose onboard over software these days as you're just introducing another point of failure at the onboard controller, motherboard RAID really is an afterthought of manufacturers, they slap a basic chip on that just says "these drives can talk to each other in RAID", nothing more really. In the case of these microservers they won't even support RAID 5 from the onboard controller so software is the only option.

I would much rather trust the OS to manage the array, especially when you consider that if there is a failure you won't have any downtime while it rebuilds (as you would if it failed from the controller level and spend your afternoon looking at BIOS screens)

I think we need to run some benchmarks !

hard drive speed, and cpu usage during read/write to see who is right here.... 

Quote from: knighty on August 12, 2011, 11:37:38 AM
I think we need to run some benchmarks !

hard drive speed, and cpu usage during read/write to see who is right here.... 

That an offer?  I don't have a RAID card so can't, unless someone else can source a one.

I do... but my conouter is in bits.... waiting on an rma :-(

I could do it when i get back tho... i need to format anyway :-)

Sounds like a plan to me, I'd like to know which is really best!

Quote from: Clock'd 0Ne on August 12, 2011, 04:13:26 AM
I think we're getting confused (I know I am)? For most onboard/motherboard RAID controllers that do basic 0 + 1 + JBOD they still pass any overhead across to the CPU usually, its usually only expensive add-in cards that have battery buffers, etc that will have dedicated on board arithmetic units for RAID 5 parity and such.

What you are reffering to is what I call, fake-raid.  This is more common in desktop entry level boards.  A lot of intel and marvell chipsets do this.   However, it's cheap and supported by a lot of OS versions.  As you mention they lack dedicated memory and batteries, it is not wise to configure them with write back options.  In some cases they will be setup through a RAID Controller Chipset anyway to provide the interface to the OS, simply due the design of the Host Bus Adaptor, this can lead to the complication of both the OS and chipset trying to provide error correction, or even potentially 3 things.

The idea of pure software RAID and line between software and hardware has become increasingly blured, the reason software RAID's have increased in perfomance is the change in CPU's, Xeons for example have embedded technology to help deal with RAID calculations.  Thus bluring this line of hardware dependant calculations.

I'll be fair, there are advantages to software RAID, it's hardware agnostic so you can move the drives from a failed system (licensing allowing), it's a lot more flexible on expansion of arrays.  But for me, I can't trust an OS to do the job of managing a RAID and I don't want it to manage the RAID, really, it's shouldn't even know or care what physical drives are there.  If it a serious server with a serious role, put the investment in, if it's for the home or small office role, absolutely, it's not worth it.

I've done server's on a budget before, buying a cheap acer server, then adding an adaptec sata raid controller, or using the onboard intel matrix controller.  They are all fine and dandy until something goes wrong and they leave you with limited options to rebuild the array.  With one card I would have presumed you could create a RAID 1 from a specified master drive, read the manual, it specifically says it will wipe both drives. 

Never again, unless this a domestic job, I just don't mess around with storage arrays on the cheap.

Offer Extended to 30th September! 

I asked this over in the Microserver XBMC thread but it seems to fit in here better, I've got my microserver and started setting it up but just realised that Windows 7 doesn't support software raid 5?

Do I need to start over with WHS? Are there other advantages to WHS vs W7 if im using the box as an always on file server, media center and downloader?

I've gone for the following:

HP ProLiant MicroServer - £121.15 (after cashback)
2 x Kingston ValueRAM memory - 4 GB - £31.46
HDE Wireless USB PC Remote Control Mouse for PC £7.95
HIS HD 6450 Silence Edition £36.99