Touch wood Ill be MCSA this time next week - Im not gonna bother with MCSE, the bump in pay doesnt look worth it so Im looking at other stuff.. has anyone been in this boat? Im looking at stuff like CCNA, Citrix, Blackberry, SQL, but really I want whatever gives me the highest paying jobs. tbh I wouldnt mind shuffling away from support work, but then I gotta balance that against what I can do and market demand. Any thoughts?
need experience not just the bits of paper
Got years of exp mate but I wanna start jumping up ladders.
A proven track record of experiance combined the Microsoft syslabus and set path of learning will make a very convincing CV. Qualifications on their own would never convince me on their own.
Ive been in this trade professionaly just over 2 years now, Ive achieved 3 different MCPs so far getting our Business Small Business Speclialist certified. Some I have done through self learning, some I have done through short courses at Microsoft Training accredited centres. I could have done more. Im in a posistion where I could go and do this course right now If I wanted to, partially funded by myself.
http://www.firebrandtraining.co.uk/courses/microsoft/server2008/mcitp_server_administrator.asp
This new MCTIP qualification is the 2008 version of the 2003 MCSA/MCSE qualifications. Its certainly something I want to achieve, but I dont feel the urgent need to do so. A lot of it, Ive allready learnt from working with the 2008 prducts, the qualification simply enforces in my mind Microsofts own best practices and shows that to employers and clients.
Qualification is an allways changing game, some certification are changed, replaced, or in Microsoft case left alone and eventually made redundant for future learning. Its down to you what you would think would be benefitiary to you both as an engineer and your ability to be employed.
Dont do every qualification for the sake of it. Some times knowing the product your self, learning the ins and outs, the typical problems will be more than you can learn from a qualification on its own.
I probably know SBS 2003 server specific inside and out better than your average engineer, regardless of what Microsoft text they have read. Ive worked with it 2+ years straight.
I agree, A mix of both is good.
I have a HND and BSC and some other bits and building up the experience but Even as early as next year I may look at some courses to get some certificates and keep them ticking over. A combination of both experience and bits of paper is good :)
I cant comment on networking type stuff, but once youre into the software development arena, qualifications are irrelevant if you know your stuff (of course a Bachelors or Masters is nice to get the door open).
I am a bit confused. Ripping people who go to uni and get a degree on the forums to and at samschrshes etc in front of people. Making it know full well that its pointless and stupid to then go do that and now thinking it is a good thing.
Quote from: CypherThis new MCTIP qualification is the 2008 version of the 2003 MCSA/MCSE qualifications. Its certainly something I want to achieve, but I dont feel the urgent need to do so. A lot of it, Ive allready learnt from working with the 2008 prducts, the qualification simply enforces in my mind Microsofts own best practices and shows that to employers and clients.
MCTIP looks a good one to do - looking at the syllabus it looks like it covers a lot of stuff that would be more day-to-day relevant than mcsa. In hindsight it looks easier as well? Maybe.. Only reason I went mcsa first and not ITP is msca never expires.
If youre applying for jobs where the big vendor certificates you have to your name are of high importance then chances are its still bottom of the ladder stuff.....
Do a degree or specialise in an area if you want to get a high paying job.
Doing cisco seems to only get you a reasonable salary if you do say the CCIE
Quote from: DaveIf youre applying for jobs where the big vendor certificates you have to your name are of high importance then chances are its still bottom of the ladder stuff.....
Do a degree or specialise in an area if you want to get a high paying job.
Doing cisco seems to only get you a reasonable salary if you do say the CCIE
Totally agree but it is nice to just go out and rather then learning stuff off your own back go do a course which you get something at the end of to add to your CV. Bit more of a focused learning.
I am refreshing my XML, XSLT..... And like as well as .NET but a good focused school like effort to get up to speed again and get something at the end of I have been considering when I have a bit more time in my evenings next year as I settle down more.
Quote from: neXusI am a bit confused. Ripping people who go to uni and get a degree on the forums to and at samschrshes etc in front of people. Making it know full well that its pointless and stupid to then go do that and now thinking it is a good thing.
Are you talking to me ?
Go back to your CSS you silly little man and stop trying to comment on real software development. Hes looking for educated comment, not the insight from a low level lacky. Instead of embarrassing yourself on here I suggest you spend time learning English and how to formulate sentences correctly. Grammar and spelling are important in the developed world - perhaps not so much in New Zealand, I dont know.
Do I have to hand out the handbags again? :disappointed:
Hey Pete, its nice to get your MCSA, but wasnt nearly as useful as the MCSE and real sys admin experience. Most things youll learn in either of the test sets can be figured out via a little gui hammering - though being familiar with domain architecture and design ahead of time is invaluable when you move up. If I had to do it again, Id just read the books and sandbox a server to mess with - certificates dont mean as much as experience.
LOL, just saw your 2nd post. You arent going to jump up ladders if youre just looking for higher pay - you need to have a deep interest in the work. I would NEVER hire someone who didnt really have a passion for it (a big thing your interview will try to suss out).
Quote from: PeteI want whatever gives me the highest paying jobs.
http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=3&p_org_id=28&lang=USas for other qualifications..
If I was employing & I had
someone experienced & MCSE
someone experienced
someone with no experience & MCSE
someone with no experience
I would chose 2,3,4,1 in that order.
Unfortunate for me, I am being forced to do my server+, full HP Certs & next year I get to choose between Cisco or Microsoft rubbish.
I have absolute no need for the piece of paper to say I am capable of doing things I have done for the last 20 years.
Unfortunate for me, our largest vendor is now insisting on it... so I have no choice in it.
Quote from: DenialPHey Pete, its nice to get your MCSA, but wasnt nearly as useful as the MCSE and real sys admin experience. Most things youll learn in either of the test sets can be figured out via a little gui hammering - though being familiar with domain architecture and design ahead of time is invaluable when you move up. If I had to do it again, Id just read the books and sandbox a server to mess with - certificates dont mean as much as experience.
LOL, just saw your 2nd post. You arent going to jump up ladders if youre just looking for higher pay - you need to have a deep interest in the work. I would NEVER hire someone who didnt really have a passion for it (a big thing your interview will try to suss out).
I dont see what is wrong with ambition. Youd be nuts to stay 2nd/3rd line for your whole life if there was a chance of moving up. fwiw Im doing books & virtual servers here, going through the excercises and reading up on technet etc. so its not like Im not doing a bootcamp or anything like that and its coming out of my own pocket - I guess that shows commitment and interest on top of my yrs of experience. I wouldnt sit and read 1,000 page textbooks if they bored the crap out of me. Ill put the ladder thing another way - you could do a MCITP on Office 2007 or you could do one on DB admin - one has more value than the other, right?
hehe I know a guy who beat 1,000 applicants to land a 50k head of IT job. The MD (who was a bloody genius with Microsoft and Linux infrastructure) raved about how good he was. He showed passion etc in the interview and the psychometric test showed he was a perfect fit. The guy seemed a nice bloke too, dead enthusiastic, geeky (in a good way) and down to earth. He lasted a week. Didnt want to learn ("Oh, we didnt have our servers set up this way in my old job"), he had no ability to stay cool and calm under pressure, didnt want to get his hands dirty... I remember one interview I had where the guy interviewing me said its like telling a girl you love her just to get in her pants - its easy to BS and tell people what they want to hear (I got the job). Gotta show you can do something, not tell.
Quotesomeone experienced & MCSE
someone experienced
someone with no experience & MCSE
someone with no experience
It depends what its for, but for an avg job Id go 2,1,4,3. Cheers for pointing me at the Oracle stuff matey.
Quote from: Eggtasticoas for other qualifications..
If I was employing & I had
1: someone experienced & MCSE
2: someone experienced
3: someone with no experience & MCSE
4: someone with no experience (and no qual presumably)
I would chose 2,3,4,1 in that order.
Why would you choose people with no experience or qualifications over someone with experience and the qualifications? Just because theyd want more pay or move on quickly?
If it were me, and you replaced these tech quals with generic industry specific qualifications (machinery operations for conservation, hygene for cooking etc), I would have thought youd want:
2,1,3,4
Reason being a person with no experience or qualifications in the subject is likely to be a numpty and not sure of what they want to do in the long run, and so just as likely to move on as much as someone over qualified (or be fired). Someone with no experience and the qualifications at least shows a desire to be in the industry and a certain level of commitment. No experience might mean theyd stay on, as well as not being able to demand more pay. Someone with experience and no qualifications also shows a desire to be in the industry, and is able to do the job. Lack of qualifications will also mean not having to pay as much potentially. It all depends on the job though, whether you just want it done, or whether you want it done really well. In todays economy Im guessing you can pretty much pick from all of the options.
A person with no no experience and no qualifications who you can train up is always better in an entry level job than a newbie with a MCSE that makes them think they know it all and can mess around with MY active directory and MY email servers without screwing up :rage: There are other reasons.
1&2 are tricky - for me it depends on the job. Entry-mid level in a SMB = 2,1 because 2 are cheaper. Mid-High level in a big company = 1,2.
Quote from: PeteIt depends what its for, but for an avg job Id go 2,1,4,3. Cheers for pointing me at the Oracle stuff matey.
You could used to do one exam online.
Quote from: PeteA person with no no experience and no qualifications who you can train up is always better in an entry level job than a newbie with a MCSE that makes them think they know it all and can mess around with MY active directory and MY email servers without screwing up :rage: There are other reasons.
1&2 are tricky - for me it depends on the job. Entry-mid level in a SMB = 2,1 because 2 are cheaper. Mid-High level in a big company = 1,2.
exactly.. I come across countless people with ms qs who dont know a thing.
Its like the saying.. you learn to drive after you pass your test.
Quote from: PeteI want whatever gives me the highest paying jobs.
What do you personally consider to be a high paying job?
Im not sure. Im not talking crazy money, the other side of 40-50k would be nice in time I guess. If you look at MCSE it tails off fast at around 35-45k. Look at say Xenserver and there are hardly any jobs under 35k, same with CCIE for example. So it makes sense to give a lot of consideration to which path to go down - you cant specialize in everything.
Quote from: DaveQuote from: PeteI want whatever gives me the highest paying jobs.
What do you personally consider to be a high paying job?
support wise without being any obscure speciality or contracting, then Id agree with pete, £50k a year would be good imo
Oracle is probably the best paying for a support role.
yup - sounds achievable tbh....
Higher and youd need some smaller specialist area to get into - If youre in London financial software* or market data for example can pay well , especially for contractors. Im still working for a vendor and am not in the position where I want to contract however I do know a few people who have (inc one guy we basically got rid of as he was useless) and they certainly dont do too badly. 3 years in such a place then stick a profile up on linked in and youll inevitable get several recruiters trying to poach you to work for XYZ bank etc...
*(do a search for say misys, murex, sungard etc... on IT jobswatch)
Figures like these make me wish I hadnt changed from computing to environmental science ><
For higher companies the people you want are 1 or 4. 1 are trained and should know what they are doing. 4 you can train them properly and make sure they can do the job.
2 should come before 3, but many organisations put too much into qualifications and what they often get is monkey see, monkey do people that can end in a horrible disaster.
Real problem is some of the people who are trained and have experience are totally incompetent too, so relying on stated experience or qualifications are both bad. Thats what the interview is for, issue here is that the person interviewing has to know the job or they could hire someone unsuitable.
Best is set up a test setup that acts like the real job and let them go on it. Throw every problem you can think of at them and, if they do it all successfully, give them a short term contract. Long term/promotion depends on results.
k, got my MCSA today, wooo! :nana:
Im thinking do 2008 dba next then that would lead nicely onto Oracle at some point in the distant future, right?
Quote from: Petek, got my MCSA today, wooo! :nana:
Im thinking do 2008 dba next then that would lead nicely onto Oracle at some point in the distant future, right?
Grats
Quote from: Petek, got my MCSA today, wooo! :nana:
Im thinking do 2008 dba next then that would lead nicely onto Oracle at some point in the distant future, right?
grats on passing - is it worth doing the SQL & then the oracle?
maybe jump straight into the deepend?
Here are the oracle certs
http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=198&p_org_id=&lang=The first module, the introduction to oracle can be done online
http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=41&p_exam_id=1Z0_007$95
Quote from: Daveyup - sounds achievable tbh....
Higher and youd need some smaller specialist area to get into - If youre in London financial software* or market data for example can pay well , especially for contractors. Im still working for a vendor and am not in the position where I want to contract however I do know a few people who have (inc one guy we basically got rid of as he was useless) and they certainly dont do too badly. 3 years in such a place then stick a profile up on linked in and youll inevitable get several recruiters trying to poach you to work for XYZ bank etc...
*(do a search for say misys, murex, sungard etc... on IT jobswatch)
I need a job in Jan when I move back to UK so get passing my name around ;)
Quote from: SamQuote from: Daveyup - sounds achievable tbh....
Higher and youd need some smaller specialist area to get into - If youre in London financial software* or market data for example can pay well , especially for contractors. Im still working for a vendor and am not in the position where I want to contract however I do know a few people who have (inc one guy we basically got rid of as he was useless) and they certainly dont do too badly. 3 years in such a place then stick a profile up on linked in and youll inevitable get several recruiters trying to poach you to work for XYZ bank etc...
*(do a search for say misys, murex, sungard etc... on IT jobswatch)
I need a job in Jan when I move back to UK so get passing my name around ;)
You looking for FS software or just general software jobs?
I know very little about FS, so anything development wise. But decent high level development, not silly web site design.
well.. just had a job interview myself and my MCSA has certainly earnt its money, seems i will be changing jobs soon then :)
Congrats matey :ptu: