Tekforums

Whats your problem? why lock the thread??

hypocrite   :disappointed:
http://www.tekforums.co.uk/posts/list/2556.page

Quotec**t

Nice to see the continual decline in tone is still going strong.

You posted a racist post, I called a sympathy whore for what she is. Theyre exclusive from each other.

Feel free to fantasize about killing brown people on your own time.

That game was created and spread by white supremacist sites. You really think thats just fun and giggles? It was created to instill hate. Notice the flag--those are stars of david--its a wink and nod to the neo-nazi community.

Quote from: maximusotterYou posted a racist post, I called a sympathy whore for what she is. Theyre exclusive from each other.

Feel free to fantasize about killing brown people on your own time.

That game was created and spread by white supremacist sites. You really think thats just fun and giggles? It was created to instill hate. Notice the flag--those are stars of david--its a wink and nod to the neo-nazi community.

. Its a bit of fun. I have irish decent but i dont ask yous to block all the jokes etc.

* your taking stupidity to a whole new level  :roll:

Who to the what now?!

Jaimz :rock:

Oh I see now.

Jaimz :rock:

Quote from: brummie. Its a bit of fun. I have irish decent but i dont  ask yous to block all the jokes etc.

 your taking stupidity to a whole new level  :roll:

Reposting neo-nazi propaganda is not the equivalent of telling a drunk Mickey joke.

That "game" has been used over here to recruit real militia to go down to the Rio-Grande river border crossing to shoot, kill, and otherwise terrify border crossers.

This is a case of you not having a clue of context about your misfortunate post.

BTW, weve loosened the rules here on cursing, but telling me to "f off" because Im criticizing your odious post is not cool. Watch it.

EDIT: further research shows that the game, among several racist games on a site I wont link to, is credited to Tom Metzger, the head of White Aryan Resistance.

They also have games where you can kill "rag-heads" and "homies".

Folks, I can enjoy a FPS fantasy game as much as the next red-blooded male, but this isnt about that. FYI, Im also a defender of the right to own firearms, provided that theyre licensed. Conceal carry with proper background check doesnt irk me much either. Im even considering getting my own shotgun for home defense, so dont paint me into some flower child PC corner. Im a rough-round-the-edges Real Man (tm) who wont stand for racism. Now Im all for making fun of everybody, every religion, every ethnic custom, and even my own bald head. Theres a huge gap between ribald joking, and downright hate propaganda. The flash game is the latter.

Quote from: maximusotter

Quote from: brummie*. Its a bit of fun. I have irish decent but i dont * ask yous to block all the jokes etc.

* your taking stupidity to a whole new level  :roll:

Reposting neo-nazi propaganda is not the equivalent of telling a drunk Mickey joke.

That "game" has been used over here to recruit real militia to go down to the Rio-Grande river border crossing to shoot, kill, and otherwise terrify border crossers.

This is a case of you not having a clue of context about your misfortunate post.

BTW, weve loosened the rules here on cursing, but telling me to "* off" because Im criticizing your odious post is not cool. Watch it.

EDIT: further research shows that the game, among several racist games on a site I wont link to, is credited to Tom Metzger, the head of White Aryan Resistance.

They also have games where you can kill "rag-heads" and "homies".

Folks, I can enjoy a FPS fantasy game as much as the next red-blooded male, but this isnt about that. FYI, Im also a defender of the right to own firearms, provided that theyre licensed. Conceal carry with proper background check doesnt irk me much either. Im even considering getting my own shotgun for home defense, so dont paint me into some flower child PC corner. Im a rough-round-the-edges Real Man (tm) who wont stand for racism. Now Im all for making fun of everybody, every religion, every ethnic custom, and even my own bald head. Theres a huge gap between ribald joking, and downright hate propaganda. The flash game is the latter.

The bristish flag gets used for * nazi and racial perposes, shall we stop using that too???

yeah it was probably used to high light a problem most americans actually believe is right. thats makes it wrong??

* idiot.

So apperently we are all neo nazis for wanting to protect our own way of living that we have worked hard for?????

oh and btw, there isnt a curse word for what i wanted to say.
and do your worse , *  :roll:

brummie

1 stop swearing and loosing your rag, if you cant then dont bother to post.
2 Ive just posted in the thread you linked to, sure its locked?

not sure what to think about this one tbh... I thought it was simply a slightly controversial/un-pc attemtp at humour - I found it pretty amusing too tbh..

If it was deliberately made for much more unplesant reasons then fair enough

(Just as an aside - I dont understand (again my pet hate) is why the thread was locked - the link is still in the original thread (why not just remove the link - surely that is what the problem is) + this thread now exists so any dissucsion that would have been stopped by locking the original thread is now simply carrying on in here - & tbh.. discussing the original link shouldnt be a major issue)

Quote from: Serious2 Ive just posted in the thread you linked to, sure its locked?

?? - is at the moment - surely you can simply unlock & merge this thread into it - then have some mod discussion as to whether you guys are happy with the link staying or not??

Seems I can post even if its locked  :whoops:

Will leave it for the moment and will open it later if nobody owns up to locking it here or privately. TBH Im interested in why too.

Unfortunately there is no option to merge threads in this forum software :evil:

i personally couldnt care. however tis just the lack of respect for other people on the boards which is irksome.

brummie there is no need to lose your rag over it mate, guys got a point which ive been reading up on.

Quote from: the independant this morninghttp://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1223038.ece



As Doug Roupp drives slowly out of the empty car park behind the small, stone church in a quiet part of southern Arizona he is praying for an uneventful day.

Every morning during the summer, while the sun is still nestled behind the desert mountains, Roupp, a 52-year-old school teacher from Massachusetts, loads bottles of water and bags of food into a white SUV and sets out on a long, daily drive that takes him deep into the states vast, scorched wilderness and closer to the border with Mexico.

His self-appointed mission is to search for illegal aliens in distress: people who, while attempting the dangerous and increasingly fatal crossing into the States through some of the hottest, harshest terrain in North America, get lost, break bones, pass out, or emerge from days in the desert in need of immediate medical assistance.

For providing such help, he and the other hundred- plus volunteers in the Samaritans aid organisation (there is no connection to the British charity of the same name), face surprising challenges: loud and vocal abuse from private citizens - either zealous individuals or organised anti-immigration groups - as well as potential arrest by the Border Patrol, the US government agency responsible for protecting and patrolling the 1,900-mile-long border with Mexico .

"No matter the criticism, we have to do whatever we can to save these peoples lives," Roupp says as he turns on the radio to listen to the early morning traffic reports. "Tragically, too often, we find people who are dying, and these days that includes women and children."

The relentless march north from Mexico of illegal aliens, or "migrants" as the humanitarian volunteers prefer to call them, is a subject about which more and more Americans now have an opinion. Earlier this year, there were headline-grabbing mass demonstrations in dozens of cities across America as hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to call for significant immigration reform and legal rights for the countrys estimated 11 million undocumented workers.

Over the past decade, several factors have been responsible for bringing the issue of migration to the boil: the North American Free Trade Agreement has resulted in many Mexican farmers being driven out of business; more than 40 per cent of the population live below the official poverty line; the events of 9/11 resulted in an increase in the number of Border Patrol Agents as well as the increased "militarisation" of certain parts of the border (with the establishment of long, imposing fences and constantly manned checkpoints).

Combined, these factors have both increased the number of illegal aliens trying to enter America to find a job, any job; ensured that those already in America remain rather than return to their homeland, as coming and going is no longer the easy journey that it used to be; and increased the mortality rate of those attempting to cross as they are forced to take the most tortuous and lethal routes to avoid detection. (omega)

The statistics are staggering. Along the whole border, which touches four US States - California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas - more than 1.1 million illegal aliens were captured and returned to Mexico in 2005. More than half of those people were captured in the desert lands in Arizona, which also claimed the most lives. As the number of people trying to cross increases (there were less than a million arrests in 2002 and 2003), so too do the number of deaths.

Since 1998, more than 3,000 people are known to have died trying to cross the border. While in 2002 there were 320 documented deaths, last year a total of 472 bodies were recovered. In the past 11 months, in Arizona alone, 124 people have died making the journey. Those deaths include more than a dozen women and children as young as three years old.

"As the border gets more and more difficult to cross, we are finding more and more women and children are attempting to come up to be with their husbands," says Roupp, who estimates that women now make up 30 per cent of those trying to enter America illegally.

Actually crossing the border is easy. In Arizona, where it is 370 miles long, less than 100 miles is divided by checkpoints or fences. People are driven or walk to an open part and take a step across an invisible line and find themselves in America. However, the barren, undulating land extending infinitely before them is where the danger lies. This is desert wilderness. There are no highways or towns; no obvious trails. Just dry riverbeds, an abundance of spiky cacti, thorny mesquite bushes, little shade and even less water.

Anyone trying to avoid the thousands of Border Patrol agents, or the hundreds of armed Minutemen - volunteers who camp in the desert to turn back or turn in illegal aliens - has to cross a minimum of 12 miles of uneven, unmarked, rocky, challenging terrain in temperatures that can range from below freezing at night to well above 40C during the day. Take a wrong turn and you could be walking for 50 miles before you reach any sign of civilisation. It is not physically possible to carry enough water to make the journey safely, so most people pay smugglers, known as "coyotes", to get them across as part of a group and to find water en route (the going rate for getting someone from Mexico to Phoenix is around Ã,£800). However, if an individual gets separated from the group, or gets left behind by the fast-moving and merciless coyotes, they quickly become lost, dehydrated, and it is then that their real fight for survival begins.

"We find people who have been lost in the desert for four or five days," says Roupp, cranking up the air conditioning in the SUV.

While the increasing number of Mexicans attempting to cross the desert has driven some Americans to start anti-immigration, vigilante groups, the sharp increase in the number of deaths among the migrants has spurred others to form or join humanitarian groups, including the Samaritans, Humane Borders, and No More Deaths.

"Its a matter of human rights for a lot of people," says Roupp. "Its also a patriotic thing for a lot of people. The US should be doing the right thing in this situation and while theyre not, were going to do our best."

The "we" Roupp is referring to is the heterogeneous army of more than 200 people who all give up their time to aid (critics would say abet) migrants in need. Over the two days I spent in the desert the volunteers I met included: a young, middle-class West Virginian student who was spending her entire summer holiday here; an elderly woman who owned land which migrants regularly crossed; a slow-talking, white-haired local pastor; an anarchist with "Burn the Flag" tattooed on her knuckles; and a 64-year-old physician who also volunteered at a clinic for the homeless (I didnt meet any Mexican-Americans although Roupp told me there are at least 10 in the Samaritans).

"For many of us, its such a complex issue that we just want to find something that we can do that is simple and straightforward," says Roupp who, for the past five years, has given up every day of his summer holidays to work with one or more of the groups. During "the death season", June to August, when the summer heat is at its most fierce, Samaritan volunteers undertake 200-mile daily patrols looking for migrants. (omega)

After driving for an hour and seeing nothing but hundreds of scattered, drained water bottles all along the dusty roadside, we are flagged down by a woman Roupp recognises as a volunteer from No More Deaths.

Nearby, sitting under a small mesquite tree, is a middle-aged Mexican man. He is clearly in distress. Roupp pulls over and, after getting a bottle of water from one of the coolers, heads over to talk to the tearful man who has his shirt half-unbuttoned, and a pair of worn leather boots sitting by his side. His feet are covered in oozing blisters and his legs are swollen.

Roupp, who speaks fluent Spanish, learns the mans name is Miguel. He is a 47-year-old farmer from southern Mexico. He has been walking, in his old boots with no socks, for four days. Overnight, the group he was with and their coyote abandoned him because he was no longer able to keep up. Hearing the sound of cars, he hobbled to this road as daylight broke and watched for over an hour as people drove past, ignoring him, until the No More Deaths volunteer pulled over. Roupp explains he has to call an ambulance.

"In the past we could put migrants in the car and take them to the hospital ourselves," he says. "Now we are just not allowed to do that. The Border Patrol told us, If you pick someone up, we are arresting you."

Last year, two humanitarian volunteers were arrested while medically evacuating three migrants from the desert (on the advice of a doctor). They are now awaiting trial on charges of aiding illegal aliens, felony charges that carry a sentence of up to 15 years in prison.

Miguel rapidly devours some cheese and crackers that Roupp gives him as we wait for the ambulance, then he starts crying again. "Hes scared," says Roupp. "He wants to know if he will be beaten up by the ambulance staff or the Border Patrol."

Miguel tells Roupp he left his farm in southern Mexico to try to come to America to find work with a friend already here, cleaning a restaurant. The ambulance arrives and Miguel is loaded on to a stretcher and taken to the local hospital. I ask what will happen to him.

"It depends on the doctors," says Roupp. "They might report him to the Border Patrol or they might not." The tone of his voice suggests that everyone in this part of America knows what they are dealing with here and many make individual choices about how to handle the migrants they encounter.

After the ambulance has left, Roupp drives miles into the desert down a dirt track to a location he knows migrants have used as a camp during the day when it is too hot to travel.

Less than three minutes after getting out of the SUV to survey the scene of abandoned clothes, backpacks, trainers, jeans, and rusted, empty tins of tuna and fruit salad, we hear a helicopter approaching.

"This happened the last time I came out here," says Roupp. "We must have stepped on one of the Border Patrols underground sensors." Sure enough, it is a Border Patrol helicopter and it circles us low enough for the pilot, peering through his sunglasses, to see we are a group of white people and to be able to read the Samaritans logo on the jeep. The Border Patrol has hundreds of underground sensors buried all over the desert. They also use vehicle patrols and unmanned drones to locate their human prey.

We wander through the detritus that those crossing this brutal land have left behind. The pages of a Spanish version of the New Testament flap in the breeze. A bra hangs from an Ocotillo cactus. A few disposable nappies peek out from a torn, black plastic bag.

There are countless camps like this scattered throughout the vast desert and many much further from roads than this one. In order to help those crossing deeper in the wilderness, the group No More Deaths has, for the past two years, maintained a summer base in the desert, in an area where several bodies have been found.

Ive been invited to spend a night with the volunteers there, led by the jovial Steve Johnston. Johnston, 61, a former alcoholic and drug addict, once worked for Penguin Books in London but now dedicates his life to working for non-profit groups. He spends most of his summer at the desert base.

"Last summer, we saw 3,800 migrants pass through this area," he reveals, sitting in an old fold-up chair by the side of his ancient camper van. "We gave (omega) food and water to 1,700 people and we had 68 people medically evacuated because they were dying."

Its not easy living in the desert. Showers are taken beneath water bags hung from trees. Meals are mostly cold food and you have to continually swat away flies. It is unbearably hot during the day and scorpions, tarantulas and rattlesnakes make the place a challenge at night. Yet more than 150 people have volunteered to help out and stay at the base. Why do they do it?

"To help stop the deaths," Johnston says, bluntly. "Last summer, I heard six people say, Youve saved my life. In your entire life if you hear that once..." He stops talking as his voice cracks.

What does he say to the argument that his work actually encourages illegal immigration?

"Weve never run into anyone out here who knew who we were, or why we were here," he says "Everyone is totally surprised. Im certain we have no impact whatsoever on encouraging people."

The following morning, at 5.30am, we trek far out into the desert to look for any migrants who have got into trouble overnight. Due to the heat during the day - it is almost 40C by 10am - migrants walk through the night and rest in any shade they can find while the sun is up. As nearly every plant has spikes in the desert, and there are steep hills and dry river beds to traverse, walking at any pace in the dark is dangerous.

"We see a lot of people with sprained ankles or broken bones," says Johnston as we trudge into the desert. On this morning we dont find anyone. Johnston suggests that if we really want to see the faces of the migrants who are so sharply dividing opinion in this country, we head for the border-straddling town of Nogales where, on the Mexican side, surprisingly, US volunteers also run a humanitarian operation.

Nogales is where the hundreds of Mexicans captured daily by the Border Patrol in this part of Arizona are bussed and then forced to walk back into Mexico. Here, next to the first phone booth on the Mexican side and within shouting distance of America (which sits on the other side of a high, solid-metal fence that is watched over from the US side by armed members of the National Guard), No More Deaths has erected a flimsy tent from which they distribute free sandwiches and water to newly deported migrants.

While giving water to a dying man you happen upon in the desert may be an unquestionable act of humanity, how do these Americans justify feeding and helping strengthen people, many of whom, the volunteers themselves acknowledge, are about to try once again to enter America illegally?

Maryada Vallet, a funky 23-year-old university graduate from Los Angeles, doesnt see any problem.

"A lot of the people brought here are suffering from heat exhaustion," she says, revealing that while the Border Patrol may, on occasion, offer some water, it certainly never offers food. "The policy makers totally underestimate the desperation of the people who are crossing. The people found dying in the desert have probably tried a few times already and they are going to keep trying in worse and worse physical condition because they feel they have no choice. If we can give them any sort of humanitarian assistance here, then maybe they wont cross again immediately."

More than 30 Mexicans, nearly all wearing jeans and trainers, appear from the US side of the border and walk slowly on the narrow path towards the phone booth. Escorted off a chartered bus moments earlier, many want to call someone to tell them of their fate. Others carry on walking, heading into the centre of the town or westwards, back towards the unfenced desert. They are a mix of twentysomethings and the middle-aged. They all have looks of resignation on their faces rather than anguish or despair.

Several wander over to the white tent before them, beckoned by the Spanish-speaking US volunteers. Many remain hesitant, but a woman encouraged by her three-year-old daughter and seven-year-old son comes to pick up free granola bars, sandwiches and water.

After watching her children eat, she tells Vallet that she was trying to cross to meet up with a cousin who could find her work. After being in the desert with her children for two days, all of them in clothes more suitable for shopping on the high street than hiking in the desert, and after walking for two nights, they were picked up by the Border Patrol early in the morning. She hadnt decided if she would try again.

"The majority of the people we see here will try again," Vallet says. "And if giving a bottle of water is the least we can do, and it might save a life, then well carry on doing it until the political situation changes."

i found it an interesting read, and it isnt about the influx of mexicans into america which is irking people, because its been happening for years, they have had long enough to establish better border controls, and now they are resorting to local "militias".

downright wrong.

Quote from: SeriousSeems I can post even if its locked  :whoops:
 

ah - youre looking at the cycling thread dude - brummie is talking about the mexican thread in GD titled one for max

Max,

As always i going to call it as i see it, which may loose my alot of favour but i dont care...

Youre a decent lad, but you ruin youself by acting like such an arrogant, self absorbed, opinionated clown sometimes. Whats right and agrees with you is A-OK and rosey, if something doesnt tally with your way of thinking and beliefs, its not fit to burn (sounds like Americans in general).

I posted a benign comment about a woman who has done some wonderful things for charity, which i am impressed with as are others on here... BUT because for some reason (im going for the trendy left chip on your shoulder) you do nothing but denegrate her efforts, and its not the first time youve had a hissy fit and stamped over peoples opinions... I admit im a moody bitch on here sometimes but you take the biscuit with the cycling thread.

As ive said, you contribute alot on here, but on other occassions you act like a proper sausage...

Im more than happy to have this discussion with anyone who disagrees with me and if you dont want to air your opinions in public, PM me.
 

Oh my lord. It was a game ffs. And not a very good one either.

People that are too sensitive and wave the racism flag when someone points out a game full of ridiculous stereotypes... then someone who feels its not what *they* want shuts the thread down.

This place is falling apart, what happened to the old guard of decent, reasonable people used as mods.... liberal do-gooders who do far more harm than good whilst fighting the "good fight" should not be considered reasonable enough to decide what is right in the real world. Dear lord.

Shame.

Cheers
Tongy

im just sick of the double standards, especially after his comments about a cyclist.

no need to lock anything. most stuff on here is mocking something lets stop all that too eh?


 :disappointed:

Ok peeps, lets all just take a deepth breath !

Max is a mod and he made a call, even if you dont agree with his decision at least show him a little courtesy by not going for a public trial !

The rules around here have not been changed as far as I know, so if you have a problem with a mods decision you should either PM that mod, another mod or one of the admin team.

Sort it out peeps ;)


btw. I am going to lock this thread.

Beyond whatever you may make of maxs own opinion I am absolutely disgusted at the hateful remarks and severe lack of respect shown over what at the end of the day is the want for removal of a crap Flash game.

Brummie: I dont care how annoyed you are that your thread was closed, you are breaching many guidelines with the disrespectful and downright insulting posts you made. If you think you can slag off other members in such a way - let alone a moderator - think again. You could quite easily PM me or another moderator, starting a new thread on the issue to slag off a moderator is totally unacceptable. That will be the last warning you are getting on the matter.

To everyone else: I dont give a rats arse what opinion you have of Mexicans, maximusotter or the need to shoot people in a flash game. A genuine and serious objection was made to the game on racist grounds and it is not out of the question for this to be pulled for this reason, if only out of respect for the opinion of a moderator.

We didnt put max in place as a moderator from America for no good reason. The man represents a spectrum of visitors to the site that are not British and may not be accustomed to our culture. Vice versa.

Since few of you are likely to be in as great a possession of facts as maximusotter is regarding the cultural/social cicrumstances under which this flash game is veiled, your complaints are unwarranted. "Nazi", "hypocrite", "lighten up" and all the other arguements do nothing to offer a good reason to allow the game to remain, beyond disrespect of max and his views.

To this end, its going. If you have a genuine concern that this purportedly racist flash game is going to somehow make the forums better, by all means voice it to me and Ill put it back up if you have a valid opinion. Otherwise, STFU tbh, and respect the mans views not only as a moderator but as a person. Views I will by honouring by removing it on these grounds of racism and poor taste.

On a seperate note, there has been some discussion of the comments in the Janes appeal thread.

Again, this is an issue of maxs own opinion versus everyone elses. This, again, says to me just how much difference there is in perspectives between both sides of the Atlantic.

Regardless of what you think of max, its an opinion. He is entitled to it. Theres no insult to anyone on the forum. Half of you think GWB is a twat but thats cool, right?

Each to his own.

If you cant understand the difference between groundless racism reflected in a game of shooting Mexicans, posted as a bit of fun  and one mans opinion on a cyclist with cancer, well, maybe you should sit back and reflect on things a little more.

Some of you seem to have lost sight of what respect actually means. Whether you dislike his opinions or not, you should respect them. Its called tolerance.