With no trial yet to take place the Authorities (Which ever US agencies are involved) are going to be deleting files off the Megaupload servers this week.
How can this be in any shape or form legal without any trial yet taken place?
The people who used and paid for this service legally using it for business of which one of our clients was. Lots of companies were using Megaupload for hosting their videos/paid videos for their business as well as means to share and manage client files of a large size such as an branding company as an example.
Not only have they lost or had issues with their business due to this now they can not get their files back.
With SOPA and PIPA they wanted to even more power, one of the key aspects of SOPA was that you could not take any legal action, But what about now?
They going after Piracy but I am pretty sure what they are doing is not legal?
I have to stress that I think for any business to use this or a cloud service is fine and savvy, but to have it maintain your sole copy of important documents and work that you have no other copies of or access to is beyond stupidity.
I have my account with Bitcasa (which I have yet to be able to use properly because of their buggy as hell software) and my intent is not to store anything on there that is in any way valuable or does not have a copy in existence on my PC or my unRAID microserver at the minimum.
Putting your faith in 3rd party services to look after your data without any redundancy is foolish, you never know when something like this might happen, or their service becomes unavailable, the company goes bust or the datacentre is hit by a meteor, any number of things really.
On the subject of whether it is illegal or not, I'm not sure what qualifies anyones data as being above the apprehension of federal law if it is possible at all, I can imagine the FBI would laugh at anyone that dared suggest that what they are doing is illegal, however you view it morally.
Quote from: Clock'd 0Ne on January 30, 2012, 20:41:46 PM
On the subject of whether it is illegal or not, I'm not sure what qualifies anyones data as being above the apprehension of federal law if it is possible at all, I can imagine the FBI would laugh at anyone that dared suggest that what they are doing is illegal, however you view it morally.
It's down to ownership, imagine if the FBI went into microsoft or sony and deleted all the files they had because a few were not legal. In this case Megaupload does not own the files, it rents or provides space for them. Deleting the files could open the FBI to huge amounts of litigation, including loss of earnings, storage access and the value of the data.
An alternative example view, a big company rents out hundreds of secure storage lockers, of which you rent one. The police find that a few criminals are using their storage to keep illegal drugs. They then burn the contents of all of the storage spaces, including yours. You still think you have no rights to sue for damages?
And of course they should have their data backed up separately, but what about companies who have used it for group projects where many people are at a distance? This could disrupt work for thousands of people.
Quote from: Serious on January 30, 2012, 22:00:59 PM
Quote from: Clock'd 0Ne on January 30, 2012, 20:41:46 PM
On the subject of whether it is illegal or not, I'm not sure what qualifies anyones data as being above the apprehension of federal law if it is possible at all, I can imagine the FBI would laugh at anyone that dared suggest that what they are doing is illegal, however you view it morally.
It's down to ownership, imagine if the FBI went into microsoft or sony and deleted all the files they had because a few were not legal. In this case Megaupload does not own the files, it rents or provides space for them. Deleting the files could open the FBI to huge amounts of litigation, including loss of earnings, storage access and the value of the data.
An alternative example view, a big company rents out hundreds of secure storage lockers, of which you rent one. The police find that a few criminals are using their storage to keep illegal drugs. They then burn the contents of all of the storage spaces, including yours. You still think you have no rights to sue for damages?
And of course they should have their data backed up separately, but what about companies who have used it for group projects where many people are at a distance? This could disrupt work for thousands of people.
They're idiots. There are many better services out there intended for code development, project storage space or sharing between friends and family.
Don't think I ever saw anything on megaupload that wasn't illegal.
I think you'll probably find that in the terms and conditions the company will have something that either transfers rights of ownership or gives then the right to do whatever they want with your uploaded data, move between servers, copy, delete, etc...
The FBI would only be invoking that clause.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
It is not really that Nige.
Use Case one:
Your a graphics company and you allow your clients through your own interface API or the actual site to upload files to manage large image files or large data files. Your a big company, 10-20 new clients a day and they upload work or you make files available for them and megaupload goes.
Case Two:
You use this like if you were to use amazon s3 servers and host videos that stream from your site and integrated into it. This could be a paid service you pay monthly for to login and access those videos.
In both cases you would have backups and local copies but in both cases the service going down without notice is decremental to your business. The loss of your service to your clients you then have to deal with your clients and angry clients. They could be very well paying you for the service you offer and now can not use it.
To recover what you have in terms of a site/service you will need to first investigate what has happened, you then have to see if you can get your files back or if the service will come back or not.
Then you will need an alternative, you need to invest in that, hook that up, upload the videos and get your site/operations going again. Yoy may need to re-write your API functionality. You may even have to pay more for the service or loose or adjust in terms of features that new service offers or does not.
You got to pay for that to be done and while this is happening you have angry clients and lost earnings.
Loose, loose and more loose.
You then also have the subscription your Paying Megaupload, you could be paying the yearly. Your now paid for nothing, you just lost out there too!
You also have the issue of private data now being viewed and under the announcements made recently could be used as evidence in court and available
and open. This could be very legal but VERY private information and they can use that as they see fit!
What ever or however this all went down, Legally no matter if it is a physical or digital you are innocent until proven guilty and any and all materials associated to that case need to be made available to prosecutors and defendants in that case.
Pretty much standard in any western society.
Deleting those files breaks those rights etc.
What happens if he is found innocent and able to go free. All what he had has a right to exist?
He has to get those servers up and running and a right to the content. All the illegal stuff has to be removed but what about all the legal?
He and the people using that service also have a right to claim loss of earnings or owned materials in some form.
Pretty much all highly dodgy, this was carried out very badly. Dotcom has hired some of the best layers money can buy and I can see them finding lots of holes of how this went down. Even if Megaupload dies in its current form over this I can see him getting off with no charges due to the balls up in the process of getting him arrested.
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad on January 30, 2012, 22:06:20 PM
I think you'll probably find that in the terms and conditions the company will have something that either transfers rights of ownership or gives then the right to do whatever they want with your uploaded data, move between servers, copy, delete, etc...
The FBI would only be invoking that clause.
I very much doubt if they ask for transfer of ownership or rights to remove the data either providing it's legal. The data is the life of the company, if it all goes then Megaupload won't have any income. There is also the defence of the ToC insisting people use the service do not use it for illegal purposes.
On top of this it is all evidence, if they delete it before the trial then their case will be substantially weakened if not voided.
I've never even looked at Megaupload, so I can't comment on the amount of illegal content on there. If data held is copyrighted and on there in breach of that then by all means delete it after the trial, but quite quickly new services will spring up in countries less bothered about the issue.
Given dropbox fell foul of the same tac's I have no doubt that megaupload have the same deal allowing then to do whatever they wish with your data.
That said, I've only heard this from nexus chances are it's not being deleted at all they've just shut down the company, what they do with the data after that point is moot.
Just read the story, so its not the "feds" deleting the data.
Megaupload purchased storage space from 3rd parties, "feds" froze their accounts, 3rd parties no longer getting paid and the court order that forced them to maintain the data for evidence has expired now that they've collected all they wish.
3rd parties are now within their right to start deleting the data from the now suspended/canceled accounts.
That's the issue here. Megaupload was a middleman.
If Bob paid jane for a VPS
You paid bob to host a website, bob gets arrested and his accounts frozen. Jane no longer gets paid.
Jane deletes the suspended account due to lack of payment.
Your gripe lies with whatever guarantees megaupload/bob gave you at the time you bought an account.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
I understand where you are coming from Liam with regard to media hosting, I do think that choosing to use a service provider that is known to be used to host illegal copies of copyright material was a questionable decision though, there are better services and ways of going about it as you pointed out mentioning Amazon's S3. If you're entering into this kind of scenario you need to know what's going to happen to your data if the worst happens and the service is shut down, sadly as you've highlighted its going to nearly always end up as lose/lose in most cases :(
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad on January 30, 2012, 22:50:33 PM
Given dropbox fell foul of the same tac's I have no doubt that megaupload have the same deal allowing then to do whatever they wish with your data.
That said, I've only heard this from nexus chances are it's not being deleted at all they've just shut down the company, what they do with the data after that point is moot.
Just read the story, so its not the "feds" deleting the data.
Megaupload purchased storage space from 3rd parties, "feds" froze their accounts, 3rd parties no longer getting paid and the court order that forced them to maintain the data for evidence has expired now that they've collected all they wish.
3rd parties are now within their right to start deleting the data from the now suspended/canceled accounts.
That's the issue here. Megaupload was a middleman.
If Bob paid jane for a VPS
You paid bob to host a website, bob gets arrested and his accounts frozen. Jane no longer gets paid.
Jane deletes the suspended account due to lack of payment.
Your gripe lies with whatever guarantees megaupload/bob gave you at the time you bought an account.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Because Dotcom is here in NZ it is been on the news non stop. Feds not deleting files but they put the order in. In any case the Layers of Dotcom are trying to stop this because the believe legally this can not be done.
As has been said a few times around web and TV - It is like dropping a Nuke to get rid of some rats. Someone mentioned that Virus movie with Hoftman and the monkey and how they were going to wipe out a whole town.
SOPA had what they could do now but no need to have other legal reasons to take something down and also no recourse if they ballsed up or lost the case for that take down. Very much guilty until proven innocence and fck eveyone.
Do not get me wrong, Piracy is wrong, I just really hate how they are going about and Ultimatly it is the Big Corporate companies pulling strings or nudging shoulders because they just want $$$$ and make no or little effort to get on board with the modern Era or innovation.
Another side to this is the big talk to this happening because Megaupload was working a new music service.
This was basically iTunes but without the publishers etc. Bands could sign a deal with Megaupload which would act as a publisher in a way to sell their stuff through them and also digital advertise which is very effective and basically cut out the middle man. You do not need their big studios to produce your music any more. Lots of rappers and artists have their own studios now for example.
The keys why this has not been done before were they still involved publishers and not just new bands, existing ones would need to be on the service. They apparently had interest. Globally songs would be a fixed price and out to all from day one.
Such a service would be win win for everyone other then the big companies.
It would mean DRM free music, sold by bands and artists who would get good exposure on a service easy to use, would have cloud features and the prices be quite low but bands would profit from it.
It simply cut out the big corporate companies and the rumours flying around and the conspiracy theorists believe they wanted this DEAD in a big way!
Someone with the money and ability to set this up is going to happen. Lots of small start up's struggle because of the license issues of music and globally offering their service. Some with take down notices for the whole thing.
This sort of concept could apply to movies as well and some big companies will just loose out, You can see how all of the above and more is a big possibility of what is going on, true or not. These big wig no clue companies want their money.
This isn't fueled by the feds. The orders they had in place are no longer required.
So if anything you're complaining about the lack of interaction they're having in this situation.
The files are being deleted because megaupload aren't paying their bills and no-one needs the storage providers to hold the data any longer for evidence.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
You do realise there are quite a few independent artists on itunes now?
Heck if randoms on youtube can post tunes up on itunes it can't be that exclusive a club.
You also realise itunes is DRM free on the music side?
Yeah?
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad on January 31, 2012, 00:22:17 AM
You do realise there are quite a few independent artists on itunes now?
Heck if randoms on youtube can post tunes up on itunes it can't be that exclusive a club.
You also realise itunes is DRM free on the music side?
Yeah?
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Of course, pulling bits and compare wont work as meant to. The start to finish big picture of their service would mean no artist or band would need their services. There was even plans with the megaupload one to put money back to the artist to fun making the albums etc through getting money from the advertising the site made etc.
We have to pay a bit to much of a high price now for music, especially outside of the US for the right to have DRM free though. I am fine with that but the hikes are set not by Apple, they wish they were less too but to keep the music on their they have to do silly deals even they do not like.
Movie buys on itunes here are same or sometimes more expensive then the physical media as a result of these which is crazy!
All these independents that make it big get signed up by record labels for reasons they feel they need to launch their carrier. Removing any need for them is a great thing for all expect the publishers etc.
None of this is fuelled by the feds, just like anything, it is the politicians and the corporate companies helping them be politicians. Like the few guys who pulled out supporting SOPA who have had their funding cut from people like Disney as a result.
I do not know how much coverage you have in the UK of Dotcom and him in jail here but it is on nearly every day.
- His layers are not been given the full set of charges for why his has been arrested for.
- One of the few reasons given has already been removed because the firearms all have licences.
- Police have been interviewed on TV and all the reasons they made the arrests were not actually related to megapload and Piracy, they were for fraud charges, drug charges etc. (That is how they got him)
- Dotcom's layers pretty positive that the charges they know of and guess at what he will be charged of will fall over due to the legal processes not being correctly followed. In the rush to take him down it just seems things were just not done right. They called it a witch hunt on the tv.
- This guy is indeed a bit of a dick it seems, Flaunted what he was doing and very likely was doing this illegal stuff, but as mentioned may very well get off just about everything because it has been handled poorly.
- He can not get bail because he has aliases.
- He has a criminal record in his home country but got NZ residency because by German law after a period of time of being crime free you history is basically wiped which allowed him to get his residency.
If the correct law and human rights process are followed it could very well be that he gets off with minor chargers and his assets restored. Megaupload may die but he is likely to set up something new or carry on with his music goals.
A lot of this is wait and see.
My points are in all this are:
1. This was not handled in the right ways at all.
2. This is much more then about Piracy
3. People doing nothing wrong are harmed and loosing out and can do nothing about it.
If I can read (pretty sure I can) your original point was:
"How can they force the deletion of files when the court case hadn't give through yet!? Surely it's illegal?"
And truth is: they aren't, so it's not illegal. :)
I do agree with your other three points though.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
.
Quote from: M3ta7h3ad on January 31, 2012, 08:07:18 AM
If I can read (pretty sure I can) your original point was:
"How can they force the deletion of files when the court case hadn't give through yet!? Surely it's illegal?"
And truth is: they aren't, so it's not illegal. :)
Evidence needs to be preserved, just in case it is relevant, therefore they should be using the funds of Megaupload to pay for continued storage.
There is also the problem of what if they are found to be innocent? Who pays compensation for the loss of business? Who pays compensation to those who aren't involved in crime but do use the services? Truth is the FBI do not seem to have the right to order deletion but allowing the data to be deleted can cause issues with this court case. Legally this opens a super economy sized can of worms and I don't think anyone here is qualified enough to say what the legal outcomes might be.
-----------------
As to copyright of music, this has far too little to do with preserving 'artists rights' and ensuring they get paid and far too much with big businesses ripping artists off and maximising their profits. Anything that encourages artists to produce their own music is bad for the likes of Sony and other big music companies, they lose control and payment they would get.
Most artists find they make very little or nothing from their 'recording contract' and lose a great deal, which is why new options of how to distribute their music is so important. For most artists exposure of their work to the public is far more important than the possibility of a few record sales.
Competition, of ANY kind, is bad for big companies and they will try anything in order to prevent it.
Actually, perhaps I'm not the right person to do this, especially when Eric Flint has done so much and better than I could ever do...
http://www.ericflint.net/index.php/2011/09/26/salvos-against-big-brother/#more-3264
The industry certainly isn't beyond a bit of copyright theft itself though!
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091207/1201017234.shtml
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5563/125/
Why do you think the evidence isn't preserved?
The FBI has gathered whatever evidence it requires. It no longer requires the original data. It's a fallacy that the original data is used for anything beyond making copies.
Once you have a copy, you make copies from a copy.
Why does a non-paying customer's customers have a right to say what amazon S3 (for example) does with their now spare capacity?
FBI has nothing to do with the deletion of data.
Anyone wishing to seek damages for loss of data or business would sue megaupload for their failure to maintain their service, however I wouldn't be surprised if in the small print of the contracts their customers agreed to, they offered zero guarantees over availability or uptime.
It's pretty simple really.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk