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QuoteAn MP has claimed that the learning disorder dyslexia does not exist and is merely a "cruel fiction" to cover up poor teaching. Skip related content

Graham Stringer, MP for Blackley in Manchester, said it was "wicked" to label children as dyslexic because they were confused by bad teaching methods.

"The education establishment, rather than admit that their eclectic and incomplete methods for instruction are at fault, have invented a brain disorder called dyslexia," Stringer wrote in a column for the Manchester Confidential website.

"Dyslexia is a cruel fiction. The sooner it is consigned to the same dustbin of history, the better."

About 6 million people suffer from the condition, according to the charity Dyslexia Action.

It said that it was not the same as having reading problems and was a combination of difficulties that could also affect spelling, writing, maths or memory.

"Once again dyslexia seems to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons," said Shirley Cramer, the charitys chief executive.

"It is frustrating that the focus should be on whether dyslexia exists or not, when there is so much evidence to support that it does."

Stringer said if dyslexia existed then countries such as Nicaragua and South Korea would not have nearly 100 percent literacy rates.

He said a scheme in Scotlands West Dunbartonshire area, which used to have a literacy problem among secondary school pupils, had eliminated illiteracy by teaching children to read using the synthetic phonics method.

"It is time that the dyslexia industry was killed off and we recognised that there are well known methods for teaching everybody to read and write," he said.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090114/thl-uk-britain-dyslexia-b2e59e8.html

Anyone wish to shove his head where the sun dont shine?

I guess he must have had very poor education growing up and just became a MP by shear luck and family conections.

Read that on Teletext just a minute ago and it caused an instant facepalm.

But according to the article, though he made a bad choice of words, he does appear to be advocating alternative learning techniques to teach people. He hasnt outright said "Dyslexia is just a word used by the lazy", he said that its used by the establishment to cover up some figures, and that techniques have been found, such as phonetics, which work. I wonder whether the rest of the quote which didnt make it into the article went on to discuss things like why such techniques arent more mainstream and why if they work they havent been employed?

(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s135/Sig_Nuka/double-facepalm.jpg)

Quote from: bearI guess he must have had very poor education growing up and just became a MP by shear luck and family conections.

nope, you need a poor education in this country to become an MP

I must admit my own personal opinion is that dyslexia doesnt exist per se as many people understand it. I think its bandied around a lot by people who have either fallen prey to laziness or are victims of our rigid education system that doesnt support teaching prople who learn in different ways. That said the way the MP worded his argument does him no favours whatsoever, if he wanted to broach the subject then a bit of tact was called for.

Dyslexia exist allright and if recognised early enough there is no problem within normal schooling as long as the theacher is aware and the right equipment ( mostly computers) is available.

Quote from: Chris HI must admit my own personal opinion is that dyslexia doesnt exist per se as many people understand it. I think its bandied around a lot by people who have either fallen prey to laziness or are victims of our rigid education system that doesnt support teaching prople who learn in different ways.

^^^ this

I dont see why people who excel in some areas and under perform in others should be categorized as suffering from a particular condition whereas people who unperformed generally are just thick. IMO its just natural variation.

Quoteyslexia exist allright

AFAIK it only exists because we say it exists, i.e people who exhibit XYZ characteristics are classified as being dyslexic the fact is that the tests for these characteristics weve decided should be classified as a condition are pretty crude at best.  Wed do better to forget labels, forget attempting to medicalise a social problem and simply invest money in ensuring all kids who are struggling are given the appropriate level of help rather than concentrating efforts on special categories of kids decided by arbitrary rules/crude and inaccurate tests.

Im classed as dyslexic, I did a 3 hour 1on1 exam with some sort of "specialist tester woman"... I go from scoring off the top of the chart in some areas (the test I did could only test me up to 98th percentile) to 12th percentile in others (like spelling) (something like the spelling ability of the average 6 year old)

but I also think theres a lot of people out there who say theyre dyslexic and theyre not really... or not enough to make a difference...

but theres some things you just cant ignore, like smart people whove had a good education who can barley read at age 40.... it doesnt sound like a big deal here... but its pretty shocking when you actually meet these people....

I have to agree somewhat that Ive never really tried to improve my spelling, and Im sure I could improve it a bit if I really worked at it... but theres no way Im going to pull my spelling ability up to the level of my other abilities... if I could spell at 98th percentile Id be a gold medal winner at the spelling Olympics :o


EDIT/PS:  most of the information I read about being dyslexic I immediately dismiss as being bollocks.... theres a lot of people out there who don;t really know what theyre talking about but pretend they do !

Dyslexia is pretty well defined, and I am well aware that there are effective treatments for it. More should be done to identify the condition early and use suitable training methods to minimise or eliminate the effects.

Saying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

In some ways Fibrositis is even worse as there are no known tests for it and no known cause. The effects are just a group of symptoms that happen to be known to appear together in some people. Individually they will probably not get all of them but the set exists.

My bro is dyslexic, not by his admission but because teachers etc told him so when he was growing up.

Hes not the best academically so chose to just get on with sports which hes good at.




In my honest opinion the teachers who tried to teach him failed, so took the easy way out and slapped a label on him.

ive been "diagnosed" as having dyslexia. at the same test i was also assessed to be in the 98th percentile.
I have major problems with A level maths. I was really good at GCSE maths but as soon as it jumped to A level i was unable to grasp certain things. Rearranging equations was a major one. I dont think my teachers methods helped but then again they did work for the rest of the class, so he just thought i was thick, which didnt help to say the least.

I kind of agree with what that MP is saying tho. the teaching system is all to eager to label someone with having dyslexia and not finding out the root cause. Some people learn with traditional measures, others such as myself need different methods to learn something. Whether or  not thats dyslexia I cant say as im not really qualified to do so!

Quote from: matt5cottIn my honest opinion the teachers who tried to teach him failed, so took the easy way out and slapped a label on him.

mine were the same, especially in junior school.... its not so bad when you get older and have different teachers in different areas.... my english/french/history/etc.. teachers hated me but my science/maths teachers liked me so it evened out  (for me anyway)


id love to bump into some of my old junior school teachers to tell them what i really think of them......

I read the article and I pretty much agree with what the guy said.

I havent had the time to look into his examples but he reckons Nicragua and South Korea have almost complete literacy amongst the population. If this is correct how do you explain that we have some 6million dyslexics (10% of our population) but other nations have almost no cases? That only leads me to believe we are massively overstating the problem, misdiagnosing or just using it as an excuse for thick kids. Almost all the thick kids my missus teaches have some degree of dyslexia according to the teachers who taught them before her, she teaches late in Primary schooling.

QuoteSaying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

Is it? :wtf:

Quote from: Eddive been "diagnosed" as having dyslexia. at the same test i was also assessed to be in the 98th percentile.
I have major problems with A level maths. I was really good at GCSE maths but as soon as it jumped to A level i was unable to grasp certain things. Rearranging equations was a major one. I dont think my teachers methods helped but then again they did work for the rest of the class, so he just thought i was thick, which didnt help to say the least.

Im good at most things but math is a hole for me, although I didnt start out that way. Initially I was better than everyone else in the class in that area. I hardly need to think, the answer popped into my head.

I certainly dont class myself as dyslexic because of that, its an issue but one I dont go up against often. However, I know others do have a hole in identifying letters and for them it can be a far worse problem. Most people dont need too much math but they do need to read.

Some do try and shove every shaped peg they can find that isnt perfectly round into that and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder though. It doesnt mean that the condition doesnt exists, just that there are probably far fewer people who actually have it than are claimed.

eh?  who says dyslexic people are illiterate ?

I may be dyslexic, but my reading and writing are a hell of a lot better than a lot of the dumb people i know !

theres too many people who arent dyslexic but say they are, and theres too many dyslexic people blaming everything on the fact that theyre dislexic...

I did a module at uni that was for dyslexic people only.... i only went to 2 lectures then didnt bother going back... full of miserable gits blaming everything on there dislexia... "I cant get out of bed in the morning because Im dyslexic" etc.... when really he was just a fat lazy bastard !

(p.s. I havent spelt dyslexic right once in this thread yet... thank god for spell checkers!)

im the same. my reading and writing are pretty sh*t hot..........well except on forums but they dont count ;)
my mental arithmetic is fine. GCSE Maths is really all most people need unless theyre doing engineering or something maths heavy (guess thats kinda obvious tho)

Ive got a couple of friends who truly are dyslexic, they phonetically spell, they cant read properly etc. Now i dont think theyre thick per se because you can tell when someone really is 2 bricks short of a load and to speak to theyre as normal as me or my other friends.

To sum up, I DO think its a genuine condition but on the other hand I think people are far too quick to label someone as dyslexic. It really shows our school system up for what it is. Teachers dont have time to sit down with pupils 1on1 and find out their best learning method. Instead they just say "youre dyslexic" and palm them off to someone else.

As for those figures of nicaragua and korea having 100% literacy rates, im gonna take them with a pinch of salt.

Quote from: DaveI dont see why people who excel in some areas and under perform in others should be categorized as suffering from a particular condition whereas people who unperformed generally are just thick. IMO its just natural variation.

Quoteyslexia exist allright

AFAIK it only exists because we say it exists, i.e people who exhibit XYZ characteristics are classified as being dyslexic the fact is that the tests for these characteristics weve decided should be classified as a condition are pretty crude at best.  Wed do better to forget labels, forget attempting to medicalise a social problem and simply invest money in ensuring all kids who are struggling are given the appropriate level of help rather than concentrating efforts on special categories of kids decided by arbitrary rules/crude and inaccurate tests.

Exactly. I recall reading various tests that demonstrate how "dyslexic" people actually do far better than "normal" people in tests relating to spatial awareness and creativity. As you say its just different strokes for different folks but our modern society is so geared towards a standardised norm for everything that anyone who deviates from this is filed neatly under one of the many labels we have invented to explain the deviation. Its society in general that is broken, not the individuals who are slapped with the label.

Quote from: knighty"I cant get out of bed in the morning because Im dyslexic" etc.... when really he was just a fat lazy bastard !

Definitely not dyslexia - but there are other conditions it can appear in Fibromyalgia as "debilitating fatigue, sleep disturbance".

I would accept your description of fat lazy bastard though as you know this person better than I do :D

I think  Dyslexia does exists but only in a tiny percent say about 0.1% of people who claim, or are labelled to be, the rest are kind of self fulfilling prophecies, have trouble reading through  either lack of education or lack of practice when young,²° so are given help to read,  give up trying, get more help, goto ²°.

IIRC I saw an article in new scientist or nature that the east Asian language use different areas of the brain de to them being pictorial that stops dyslexia, and that western people who are labelled as dyslexic that learn eastern scripts find they are not dyslexic in those scripts.

QuoteIIRC I saw an article in new scientist or nature that the east Asian language use different areas of the brain de to them being pictorial that stops dyslexia, and that western people who are labelled as dyslexic that learn eastern scripts find they are not dyslexic in those scripts.

Do you have any more information about different areas of the brain being used for the comprehension of different languages?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14920186.800-language-centres.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14920132.300-why-english-is-hard-on-the-brain.html

Not much but it does confirm the item, its also based on a single person.

Dyslexia seems to run in families and it has at least some genetic component. Unless the people had the problem genes then it would be impossible for them to develop it. Which might explain why children in some large areas of the world dont get the symptoms.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14419482.700-dyslexia-gene-lurks-in-chromosomes-black-hole.html

Quote from: SeriousSaying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

erm no

It really doesnt exist in the sense that a headache exists. It is a term that weve applied to people whos personal abilities fit into the crude parameters set. It only exists in this sense because we say it exists.

I dont agree with the way this has now lead to certain children in schools being given special status or having extra resources devoted to them, instead of labeling people with conditions we need to just accept that through natural variation people will have different skill sets and schools should simply aim to devote resources to all kids who are underachieving in certain areas.

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: SeriousSaying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

I dont agree with the way this has now lead to certain children in schools being given special status or having extra resources devoted to them, instead of labeling people with conditions we need to just accept that through natural variation people will have different skill sets and schools should simply aim to devote resources to all kids who are underachieving in certain areas.

Thats fine in principle, but because of the standardized society we live in as already referred to in this thread - people who cant read/write relatively competently are at a significant social disadvantage - to me there should be at least a base level of competence that we try to get all kids to. That will inevitably take more resources for some kids than others.

Quote from: Alien8I think  Dyslexia does exists but only in a tiny percent say about 0.1% of people who claim, or are labelled to be...

What he said.

Its like that ADHD.  99.999999% of "cases" are utter bullsh*t - a poor excuse for lazy, undisciplined parenting.
 

 

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: SeriousSaying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

erm no

It really doesnt exist in the sense that a headache exists. It is a term that weve applied to people whos personal abilities fit into the crude parameters set. It only exists in this sense because we say it exists.

You only feel pain because your brain neurons tell you its there. There are people who can switch it off completely and others who have never felt it. Then painkillers can cause headaches. Your brain has no way of feeling pain directly either. You can also hypnotise people into having a headache. That means all you have is a symptom which might not even exist.

Quote from: SeriousYou only feel pain because your brain neurons tell you its there. There are people who can switch it off completely and others who have never felt it. Then painkillers can cause headaches. Your brain has no way of feeling pain directly either. You can also hypnotise people into having a headache. That means all you have is a symptom which might not even exist.

complete bollocks - if I go out and get sh*t faced then wake up on a Friday night the condition Im in on Saturday morning is a very real physical condition - the headache is merely a symptom.

Comparing this to dyslexia is, well I dont even know where youre going with this headache argument tbh... its complete nonsense.

You could decide that people who cant sing in tune should be classified as XYX, you could then decide that people who score highly on an IQ test but poorly on a memory test are now defined as having another condition.... In fact we could define 1000 crudly measured conditions which reflect all sorts of natural variation in the abilities of the general population at large. If people argue that these conditions dont exist we can point out that they can be measured/tested. Or we could just accept that people are different, will excel in some areas and be lacking in others.

Quote from: BigSoyThats fine in principle, but because of the standardized society we live in as already referred to in this thread - people who cant read/write relatively competently are at a significant social disadvantage - to me there should be at least a base level of competence that we try to get all kids to. That will inevitably take more resources for some kids than others.

Yes and what Im arguing against is giving some special status...

to put it crudely the kid who excels at maths but is crap at reading/writing is given a free laptop, extra time in exams, extra help lessons to cope with his condition and bring him up to speed with reading writing.

The kid who is equally crap at reading/writing but also sucks at maths doesnt get this special status because he doesnt fit into the condition weve chosen to define & label.

Would it not make more sense to forget about labels as an excuse for middle class parents when their kid turns out to be a complete mong at spelling and just devote appropriate resources to helping all kids who are falling behind.

i think youve missed the point about dyslexia (for those people that really do have it)

I couldnt learn to spell if my life depended on it (literally)

I wasnt tested until I was in uni so it didnt make much difference to me anyway.... but if Id been tested sooner Id have passed my English GCSE easy (and first time) because theyd have ignored my bad handwriting and spelling... instead of me having to re-sit during 6th form....

being dyslexic didnt really effect me too much.... but wait till you meet an obviously very intelligent guy in his 40s.... who has to trace his finger along under words as he reads them aloud (slowly) because its the only way he can read... you soon realises that a lot of dyslexic people are seriously screwed.

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: SeriousYou only feel pain because your brain neurons tell you its there. There are people who can switch it off completely and others who have never felt it. Then painkillers can cause headaches. Your brain has no way of feeling pain directly either. You can also hypnotise people into having a headache. That means all you have is a symptom which might not even exist.

Im going to write some crap and get it all wrong again.

Surprisingly hangovers are one thing which reacts shockingly well to placebos. So if you take a medicine that isnt real, for a condition you think you should have. In short a hangover is as much a psychological condition as a physical one.

QuoteAccording to most experts with a serious interest in the topic, most morning-after medications and emergency measures are no more than placebos, banking heavily on the power of belief and a hefty dose of wishful thinking.

http://www.doitnow.org/pages/156.html - yes I bothered to use yahoo to find some proof.

Before you go on and show yourself up even more, I do know my stuff on this issue, you obviously dont.

Some additional reading for you.

QuoteThe brain in itself is not sensitive to pain, because it lacks nociceptors. Several areas of the head can hurt, including a network of nerves which extend over the scalp and certain nerves in the face, mouth, and throat. The meninges and the blood vessels do have pain perception. Headaches often result from traction to or irritation of the meninges and blood vessels. The membrane surrounding the brain and spinal cord, called the dura mater, is innervated with nociceptors. Stimulation of these dural nociceptors is thought to be involved in producing headaches. Similarly the muscles of the head may be sensitive to pain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headache

Eh? WTF have headaches and the placebo effect got to do with dyslexia?

Show myself up? - youve shown absolutely nothing and havent even bothered to deal with the points Im putting forward about Dyslexia. Instead youve googled an load of off topic sh*t and filled your post up with completely irrelevant points.

Quote from: DaveEh? WTF have headaches and the placebo effect got to do with dyslexia?

Show myself up? - youve shown absolutely nothing and havent even bothered to deal with the points Im putting forward about Dyslexia. Instead youve googled an load of off topic sh*t and filled your post up with completely irrelevant points.

I was completely on topic. So lets run through it.

Quote from: meSaying it doesnt exist though is like saying you dont get headaches because you can take aspirin and other drugs to stop the pain.

^That was what you quoted first, not me. If you hadnt quoted me I wouldnt have bothered replying to you.

Quote from: youerm no

It really doesnt exist in the sense that a headache exists. It is a term that weve applied to people whos personal abilities fit into the crude parameters set. It only exists in this sense because we say it exists.

^Actually there are many kinds of headaches, just like there are many kinds of dyslexia.

Quote from: meYou only feel pain because your brain neurons tell you its there. There are people who can switch it off completely and others who have never felt it. Then painkillers can cause headaches. Your brain has no way of feeling pain directly either. You can also hypnotise people into having a headache. That means all you have is a symptom which might not even exist.

^You said a headache exists, I said it might be a figment of your imagination.

Quote from: youcomplete bollocks - if I go out and get sh*t faced then wake up on a Friday night the condition Im in on Saturday morning is a very real physical condition - the headache is merely a symptom.

Comparing this to dyslexia is, well I dont even know where youre going with this headache argument tbh... its complete nonsense.

^You start insulting me

Also by this point you had lost the plot entirely, I never compared dyslexia to a headache in my previous posts, even though they are comparable in certain aspects. Lets see if I can drive it into your skull by rewording my first statement

Saying Dyslexia does not exist, because it can be treated with educational methods can be compared to saying a headache dont exist because it can be treated with aspirin, or even placebos.

no1 cares

Quote from: Eddno1 cares

Youre right, I dont really.

Quote from: SeriousSaying Dyslexia does not exist, because it can be treated with educational methods can be compared to saying a headache dont exist because it can be treated with aspirin, or even placebos.

I think your main problem is that you dont really read what people have posted (the above certainly does not reflect my views on dyslexia). You then go off on a tangent and google a load of crap to prove some random point irrelevant to the thread. I dont really care about headaches, its irrelevant nor am I going to bother making several quotations (Ive got a job and dont sit in my home all day on the internet).

Quote from: Eddno1 cares

true - though no doubt hell google some more stuff/selectively quote me 5 times....

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: Eddno1 cares

true - though no doubt hell google some more stuff/selectively quote me 5 times....

Quote from: DaveIm a muppet

Quote from: DaveIm a muppet

Quote from: DaveIm a muppet

Quote from: DaveIm a muppet

Quote from: DaveIm a muppet

As you wish. Didnt need to google though :P

Serious, you must either be a very angry person labelled with dyslexia or have too much time on your hands.

I almost entirely agree with dave, I think the biggest tragedy of this all is that a lot kids, and their parents, who get labelled as being dyslexic end up pretty much giving up improving their abilities.

Quote from: AdrockI almost entirely agree with dave, I think the biggest tragedy of this all is that a lot kids, and their parents, who get labelled as being dyslexic end up pretty much giving up improving their abilities.

If that was what he had been saying then I would have agreed, labelling anyone with a condition and not trying to cure it or help them around the issue is just a waste. I think I said this myself at least once.

Im not dyslexic, its just sometimes me and Dave start arguing and then neither is actually sure what the hell it was about :shrug: I sometimes think if someone got us started on the cup half full/empty issue, and then sealed us in a room, we might still be arguing months later...