Quote from: Goblin

Quote from: Serious

Quote from: skidzilla^All you need is thermodynamics. And arguing against that is like banging your head against a brick wall.

...So where did all the energy come from to kick start the Universe? The laws of thermodynamics are really a statement of how things look, and have looked, as far back as  we can see.  This might change at any moment, although it is unlikely. It would be very difficult for us to tell if the universe removed or inserted a few galaxies worth of energy while or where we were not looking.

The energy didnt change, it was just in a very small area. As usual, there is an XKCD for that:

(Image removed from quote.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBE

And before that? Has the universe always existed in some form with the present energy level? What about before the big bang?

Quite frankly your point just avoids the problem, all the energy came originally from something.

Actually some of the present theories propose that the energy cancels out, so you effectively get the biggest free lunch ever.

Quote from: SeriousAnd before that? Has the universe always existed in some form with the present energy level? What about before the big bang?

Quite frankly your point just avoids the problem, all the energy came originally from something.

Actually some of the present theories propose that the energy cancels out, so you effectively get the biggest free lunch ever.

That was related to the universe adding or removing energy as opposed to the where it came from.

We simply have no way to know what happened right at the start, or prior to the start of the universe (anything before the Planck epoch at about 10^-43 seconds in).

Yet.

Part of the problem too is that, as mere mortals (scientifically speaking), we have no way to conceptually think of the start of the universe, especially if you take the view that time starts with the big bang too. ie there is no "before".

However, to vaguely drag this back on topic, lack of knowledge is zero reason to say "it was god wot done it".

Adding or subtracting energy isnt allowed by the thermodynamics, it doesnt say that the universe is exempt from this.

At least by saying it was god what done it you have a 50% chance of being right. Remember that the whole of science is based on probability. Really I doubt if anyone can provide a 100% guaranteed answer to this question without adding an I believe to it. The nearest answer we can give at present is simply we dont know.

The alternative is that the whole universe turned up for no reason at all, which might be a bit disappointing to say the least.

Note Im not saying that the Christian fundamentalists, or the extreme Muslims are right either. I gave up on other peoples religion a long time ago and concentrate on what mine is. So far its if you believe in a god, go with your god, if you dont then go without...

Quote from: SeriousReally I doubt if anyone can provide a 100% guaranteed answer to this question without adding an I believe to it. The nearest answer we can give at present is simply we dont know.

Well, I would agree that, at the minute, we cant say how it happened, but we can make educated hypotheses which, as they stand up to the rigours of testing will become theories. In the absence of evidence we dont know is the logical position to take.

Quote from: SeriousAt least by saying it was god what done it you have a 50% chance of being right. Remember that the whole of science is based on probability.

Thats a common misconception. There isnt a 50% chance of god, thats like saying theres a 50% chance of winning the lottery jackpot because you either win it or you dont. Its also like saying theres a 50% chance that the universe was farted out by an invisible pink unicorn because that has exactly as much evidence as any other supernatural being.

Quote from: skidzillaThis is my opinion as an atheist too. I cant force anyone to believe or disbelieve anything; everyone must reach their own conclusions, their own personal truth.

This is a good atheisty statement.

Of course, if God exists then the nature of the world suggests that he is rather selective over who is saved and who isnt. i.e. you dont believe in him because he doesnt want you to believe in him

I had an argument with my friend whose a christian, who said that people who believe are preselected to believe or something similar. So i countered with why the f**k do they bother everyone, trying to convert them

How, literally in Gods name, would anyone preselectively believe in Him if they wernt bombarded and indoctrinated with religious material from a young age? Thats total garbage.

There are no Jesus believers in the Amazon rainforest unless missionaries get to them.

im fully aware of how religion is sh*t and full of lies

Quote from: Clockd 0NeHow, literally in Gods name, would anyone preselectively believe in Him if they wernt bombarded and indoctrinated with religious material from a young age? Thats total garbage.

There are no Jesus believers in the Amazon rainforest unless missionaries get to them.

It might be true that there are no believers in an Abrahamic god, but unlikely there are no people with faith?

Not that Im saying that that the whole bearded bloke in the sky thing isnt bollocks, but faith isnt without its value to some people.

Quote from: EddI had an argument with my friend whose a christian, who said that people who believe are preselected to believe or something similar. So i countered with why the f**k do they bother everyone, trying to convert them

Because thats in the contract...

Quote from: bear(Image removed from quote.)

Applies equally to Scientists and Atheists

Scientist: There is no god.

Christian: Oh yeah? Prove it!

Scientist: ITS OBVIOUS STUPID!

Quote from: SeriousApplies equally to Scientists and Atheists

Scientist: There is no god.

Christian: Oh yeah? Prove it!

Scientist: ITS OBVIOUS STUPID!

Thats not how the argument goes.

Scientist: Theres no proof, or even any evidence for god so the only logical conclusion is to assume there isnt one until evidence appears to the contrary. LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

Theist: Yeah, well you cant prove there isnt one.

Scientist: /facepalm

Unfortunately it appears that religious people are completely lacking in logic