Quote from: SteveFIf you accept that the A-levels have now gone to be so meaningless theyre just entry exams for uni then its really not a problem.  If the a-level decline was stopped several years ago then fine, now its simply locking the barn door after the horse has bolted.

that attitude sucks tbh...

tis like well the kids have been doing sub standard exams for a while so lets do nothing about it - the whole point is that it is now perfectly clear that standards have dropped we ought to be doing something to change that.

theyre not just entry exams for uni- not everyone goes to uni - though Im guessing people who leave school at 18 would prob want to have a qualification that is still valued.

even people who are just using them as entry for uni are getting a raw deal (especially the brightest kids) as there is no differentiation between them and other A graders who might have vastly different abilities. - it isnt just oxford and cambridge who have to choose between students with straight As - quite a few other top unis have to do it now and not all of these have extra papers for students to take

/Disclaimer/ The following opinion is not based or changed on the ever improving A-Level standards results.......

There are lot of options avaialable for school leavers these days, you dont have to go and do A-Levels.  It all depends on where you want to go and what you want to achieve.  Really if you want to go onto further education and have your heart set on it, A-Levels are the best route. They have allways been the preferance of universities, in some case only accepted qualification.  

I think it is fair to say they have allways been less industry recognised, the reason being, it doesnt tell the employer what you are capable of, unlike industry recognised qualifications, which tell the employer exactly what they are getting

On the oposite end of the scale are AVCEs, a type of NVQ.  It is an industry recognised qualification., if your set on employment and you know where then great, it can be a real advantage in the workplace.  The same as taking any industry qualification, from fork lift licenses to cisco networking certificates.

http://www.aqa.org.uk/qual/avce.html

In the middle of the two you have the middle ground with other NVQ qulifications which typically take place at your local college or traning courses with an apprenticeship/job.  IE OND, HNDs, NVQs.  These have been both academically recognised by universities and industry recognised by companies for both the theorectical and practical work that takes place as part of the course.

I did an OND in Engineering at my local college, at the time I had no plan of going to university, neither was I interesed in going striaght into employment.   But I also wanted to further my qualifications and experiance in what was my interest at the time.

The point is, imho, unless you have your heart set on a degree or other further education, dont go running of to do A-Levels.

Quote from: CypherReally if you want to go onto further education and have your heart set on it, A-Levels are the best route.

aside from say the IB, scottish highers, & the Irish leaving certificate

ok so there arent too many people doing the IB in the UK - mostly private schools - though there are plenty of international students doing it & universitys rate it far higher than A-levels - 35/40 in the IB = 4As at A level

QuoteThe point is, imho, unless you have your heart set on a degree or other further education, dont go running of to do A-Levels.

erm - they are not & were never intended to be *just* a route to uni - plenty of people leave education at 18 & dont go into industrys that require NVQs etc.. - you can train as an accountant with A-Levels btw...

not many jobs actually require a degree - lots of employers are asking for degrees these days for jobs that in the past would have been done by an A-level school leaver

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: CypherReally if you want to go onto further education and have your heart set on it, A-Levels are the best route.

aside from say the IB, scottish highers, & the Irish leaving certificate

ok so there arent too many people doing the IB in the UK - mostly private schools - though there are plenty of international students doing it & universitys rate it far higher than A-levels - 35/40 in the IB = 4As at A level

QuoteThe point is, imho, unless you have your heart set on a degree or other further education, dont go running of to do A-Levels.

erm - they are not & were never intended to be *just* a route to uni - plenty of people leave education at 18 & dont go into industrys that require NVQs etc.. - you can train as an accountant with A-Levels btw...

not many jobs actually require a degree - lots of employers are asking for degrees these days for jobs that in the past would have been done by an A-level school leaver

thats because 35/40 is just as difficult as getting bloody 4 As!

If you did an "accountancy" a level it would mean jack sh*te. Unless it has ACCA on it noone is interested, or unless you have a degree in engineering, maths, physics, accountancy.

A levels for the people who actually take them (so scottish highers, and irish leavers is out) are the best option to get into uni. Required grades are still given in terms of A level points, as opposed to grades, so to be honest A level grades mean naff all... not A levels.

IE 360 Points, not 2 As and a C or whatever.

Quotethats because 35/40 is just as difficult as getting bloody 4 As!

exactly - so brighter students doing A-Levels are immediately at a dissadvantage as the exams will not challenge them as much nor reflect the difference between a bright person with an A grade & a very bright person with an A grade.

there are 6 grade categorys - a.b,c,d,e & u - yet 1/4 fall into the top category - the "C" grade was originally intended to represent the average achievement yet this is now mostly represented by the lower end of the "b" grade

QuoteIf you did an "accountancy" a level it would mean jack sh*te. Unless it has ACCA on it noone is interested, or unless you have a degree in engineering, maths, physics, accountancy.

erm re read my post - I said you can train to be an accountant with "A-Levels" I didnt say you needed an accountancy A-Level

QuoteA levels for the people who actually take them (so scottish highers, and irish leavers is out) are the best option to get into uni.

no they arent -  the IB is regarded as being a better qualification  and is taken by people who would otherwise have done A-levels - this is precisely why more private schools are offering the IB - the universitys prefer it & it ups thier admissions to the top unis

The majority of University goers are state schooled, not private.

The majority of admissions to university are A levels.

The only people who will get 4 As are the exceedingly bright people, the same people who will get 35/40. You dont get Jo bloggs getting 4 As.

and A grade is just an A grade in 1 subject. To give that dedication needed to get that A grade in all 4 subjects is insane. Youd not have a social life.

Quote from: Daveerm - they are not & were never intended to be *just* a route to uni - plenty of people leave education at 18 & dont go into industrys that require NVQs etc.. - you can train as an accountant with A-Levels btw...

Im not saying those with A-Levels cant get a job, or go of and do Leisure & Tourism, Finance, Law, whatever.  Im saying they would be at a distinct disadvantage.  

Say some one applies for a posistion in First Choice for a senior travel assistant or whatever, who would raise more of an eye brow looking at the CVs, mr 4 A levels, or AVCE in Leisure & Tourism.

Yes some one could be trained with any organisation for any posistion. But how many companies are willing to do that, why not just hire some one with the recognised qualification to say what hes/shes studied and done.

I just remembered actually, Ive got a friend working in Coventry who was being trained up in the Finance department for an insurance company, was doing pretty well.  Think hes been there since school iirc.   Oppurtunities like that are few and far these days.

I agree that the problem with A-Levels is not the award it self, but the grade system and the recognition it gets.  It doesnt tell an employer a lot.

Quote from: M3ta7h3adThe majority of University goers are state schooled, not private.

very large portion of the entrants to top unis are private

QuoteThe majority of admissions to university are A levels.

so if the majority of hospitals had poor waiting lists would you say - well never mind its been like this for years - there has been a steady decline in the NHS why bother doing anything about it....

why not actually make the effort to improve something that most people realise has been getting poorer over the past decade or so

QuoteIm not saying those with A-Levels cant get a job, or go of and do Leisure & Tourism, Finance, Law, whatever.  Im saying they would be at a distinct disadvantage.  

Say some one applies for a posistion in First Choice for a senior travel assistant or whatever, who would raise more of an eye brow looking at the CVs, mr 4 A levels, or AVCE in Leisure & Tourism.

well it depends on the industry - my point is that A-levels are not just for people wanting to go to uni - plenty of people dont want the debt etc.. but dont fancy a trade/vocation - NVQ route - if someone wanted to train as an accountant without a degree or get an entry level position within a big bank etc.. then A-levels would be the way to go tbh... but since the qualification is getting so devalued increasingly some employers are looking for graduates for these positions.

there are about 300,000 people who work in the city of london - most of these people wont have been through the traditional graduate training scheme - but they do have people with 2.1s in history etc.. working in back office roles these days in some investment banks - this is traditionally an A-Level leaver job - the grad starts off being a bit chuffed cos he/she is in the city  working for a big bank when in reality they are simply doing a clerical/admin job - plenty of other places still have A-level leavers doing these jobs but it is on the decrease as the quality of entrants is decreasing  so they have to recruit people with degrees they will probably never use.

If we had a better standard of A-level & reduced the number of university places then we could probably not only reduce student debt & get rid of micky mouse courses & former polys but also improve the quality of entrants to companies for jobs that really dont require degrees.

I mean they used to give out grants for unis - now all theyve done is lower the standards - expand polys & created loads of devalued courses so that the same job that used to be done by a school leaver is now done by a grad who might as well have not bothered with uni in the first place.

Quote from: Dave

QuoteIm not saying those with A-Levels cant get a job, or go of and do Leisure & Tourism, Finance, Law, whatever.  Im saying they would be at a distinct disadvantage.  

Say some one applies for a posistion in First Choice for a senior travel assistant or whatever, who would raise more of an eye brow looking at the CVs, mr 4 A levels, or AVCE in Leisure & Tourism.

I mean they used to give out grants for unis - now all theyve done is lower the standards - expand polys & created loads of devalued courses so that the same job that used to be done by a school leaver is now done by a grad who might as well have not bothered with uni in the first place.

So now your going off of A levels, and saying that Degrees are "dumbed down" because of A levels. Bollocks mate, Unis do not care what you learnt at A level, if you dont know something on your course, that they think you should know, then you have to go learn it on your own. You dont get a handholding, your lucky if you get the book you need thrown at your head, its normally a case of googling some decent research on it, or heading to the library.

The only thing A level points are used for are entry, and thats it. Lecturers do not waste their time teaching playschool topics to degree students, you get told you know something, if you dont... then your on your own.

Rich is spot on imo.

Jaimz

Quote from: M3ta7h3adSo now your going off of A levels, and saying that Degrees are "dumbed down" because of A levels. Bollocks mate,

so do you think maths at say Luton is equivalent to maths at a traditional red brick such as say bristol or manchester?

Nah must be the same - A-Levels arent slipping - kids are just getting brighter & all these new universitys that are popping up and handing out degrees are still maintaining the same standards.....

yeah right  

Quote from: Dave

Quote from: M3ta7h3adSo now your going off of A levels, and saying that Degrees are "dumbed down" because of A levels. Bollocks mate,

so do you think maths at say Luton is equivalent to maths at a traditional red brick such as say bristol or manchester?

Nah must be the same - A-Levels arent slipping - kids are just getting brighter & all these new universitys that are popping up and handing out degrees are still maintaining the same standards.....

yeah right  

Universities do not have a curriculum to follow, therefore people covering maths in luton and people covering maths at bristol will probably cover different subjects, so to compare them would be comparing apples and oranges. They are both round, both come from a tree, but they are completely different.

The standards of a degree are completely different to what you expect at A level.

As a national average, the 2.2 degree still reigns supreme, a first is still incredibly hard to get unless you really put the effort in, or have a natural aptitude for the specialism of your degree, a 2.1 is what most people who put the effort in, aim for.

A degree is also more specialised than an A level. A level physics for example will cover any topic under the sun from astronomy, to quantum mechanics. A degree in physics starts with a broad range of subjects, but gradually becomes more specialised as you go on through it. Its the same with any degree you take.

Computer Science may teach you everything about hardware, networking, software engineering in the first year, then second year you get a few options, then the 3rd you get more. By the end of my degree Ill have specialised in knowledge based systems and Artificial Intelligence... completely something else when someone else who taking Computer science can choose to specialise in software design, compiler design, and databases.

Same degree title, completely different specialisations.

with regards to the polytechnic -> university route, typically they obtain lecturers who have just completed doctorates, or masters, while they wont have the knowledge or indeed experience of a professor of whatever subject, they sure as hell arent slouches in their fields.

Polytechnics can give great education for Batchelors, would I trust them with a masters... well at that stage most of the work you do is your own, including the research and self learning, so yeah I probably would if they offered one.

They are also a great thing for university leavers, as I already said, new universities will recruit newly decorated doctorates to lecture at their institution... means that more jobs are out there for the rest of us!

 

QuoteAs a national average, the 2.2 degree still reigns supreme,

 over 50% of grads get a 2:1 or a 1st  btw...

Quote from: M3ta7h3adSame degree title, completely different specialisations.

well that is an optimistic way of putting it - maths at luton (dubbed the worst uni in the UK) is a different specialisation to say maths at bristol - nothing to do with them reteaching A-level maths to the students who barely understood it first time round