Author Topic: Sci fi space travel?  (Read 8016 times)

  • Offline zpyder

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Sci fi space travel?
on: December 30, 2008, 14:15:07 PM
Rembering some of you lot banging on about the shields in star trek, I have a question for you.

I am currently reading the "Forever War" saga. The premise is pretty much that a method of interstellar travel has been found that allows ships to travel at pretty much lightspeed, but the twist is that the ship travels instantly between "wormholes". As a result of relativity, this means that for the people travelling, they dont age while the rest of the universe does.

An example would be travelling 100 light years between points A and B. The ship enters point A in 2100 AD, and emerges at B at 2200 AD (100 light year distance), but for the ship it was instant between A and B, meaning the crew etc havent aged.

This results in loads of issues when Earth goes to war, as it takes hundreds of years for the first patrol to get back, and the vets are in essence antique.




SO...the question, how was this addressed in shows like Star Trek? Ive never really thought about it till now, but surely if the starships travelled faster than light, in essence theyd get to their destination before they set off. If they travel at near light speed, the above problems would occur when the crews returned to their base etc?

  • Offline skidzilla

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #1 on: December 30, 2008, 15:25:02 PM
AFAIK Star Trek just ignored the issue of relativity completely.

  • Offline Quixoticish

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #2 on: December 30, 2008, 15:42:09 PM
Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.

  • Offline zpyder

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #3 on: December 30, 2008, 16:35:22 PM
Heh.

The other issue that I think has always been ignored is how whenever 2 ships meet in space, they are always orientated in the same way???

  • Offline Quixoticish

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #4 on: December 30, 2008, 19:17:21 PM
Quote from: zpyder
Heh.

The other issue that I think has always been ignored is how whenever 2 ships meet in space, they are always orientated in the same way???


Theres a running joke in the latest Star Trek game (Legacy) where they removed the FMV cutscenes from the game to save money but kept voiceovers so you can understand the plot. The result is some wonderfully personified space-ships meeting face to face in space and having a chin-wag.

In all seriousness I just put it down to some polite form of the space equivilent of maritime code and dont let it get in my way of enjoying the shows. I suppose if you wanted to analyse it deep enough you could argue its something to do with bringing the most powerful weapons to bear on a potential threat (the only time they dont meet face to face is when they are allies, then they tend to fly alongside one another and arrive at random angles). Id suggest not analysing it too much and just chalking it up to a little bit of defamiliarisation; Trek ships meet face to face in the same way there are no squares in Battlestar Galactica (everything from doors to pieces of paper has the corners chopped off), it is because thats how it is.

  • Offline Serious

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #5 on: December 30, 2008, 20:16:05 PM
Quote from: Chris H
Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.


Except ships can still see each other and fire at each other when in warp. Really its a twisted mess. There is also the alternative that it doesnt create a subspace bubble but moves an area of space through the rest of it. The space moves faster than light, not the ship which is inside the space.

Star wars hasnt done any better either. Neither have most of the others. David Webers Honor Harrington series of books took reality as far as it could, ships travel through a subspace but once out they are limited by the speed of light. Really though there are very few fully convincing Sci-Fi series in this area.

  • Offline zpyder

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #6 on: December 31, 2008, 00:22:13 AM
I dont think any sci fi Ive encountered, bar Forever War, has tackled the issue of relativity in space travel!

Sci fi space travel?
Reply #7 on: December 31, 2008, 00:54:35 AM
zpyder... whats the name of the book youre reading... and is it any good ?  it sounds like itll either be really really good.... or really really bad !

Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 09:33:02 AM
but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.

If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?

  • Offline zpyder

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Sci fi space travel?
Reply #9 on: December 31, 2008, 10:09:56 AM
Quote from: knighty
zpyder... whats the name of the book youre reading... and is it any good ?  it sounds like itll either be really really good.... or really really bad !


Its called "The forever war" and Ive got an omnibus edition which has that in, as well as its sequel and some other story which doesnt appear to have the main character in it but makes it a trilogy. Its kinda meant to be a sci-fi story about vietnam, but Im too young and know so little about Vietnam that I cant really relate the two, its a damned good yarn though.

  • Offline zpyder

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: Eggtastico
but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.

If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?


I dont quite get what youre asking.

If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?

Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.

The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)

Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: zpyder
Quote from: Eggtastico
but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.

If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?


I dont quite get what youre asking.

If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?

Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.

The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)


I Dont buy the argument you cant go faster than the speed of light... I dont believe going faster = time travel bollocks either.

  • Offline Serious

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #12 on: December 31, 2008, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: Eggtastico
Quote from: zpyder
Quote from: Eggtastico
but if somthing is 100 lightyears away & you travel at a million lightyears then how come people at point B would age by 200 years?
hes travelling at 186000000000 miles a second.

If I drive to London & back, i still age exactly the same amount as someone left back home?


I dont quite get what youre asking.

If you drive to london and back, youre not going at the speed of light. Did you ever do the difference of the speed of sound and light in physics, where you class went into a field and someone made a noise by kicking a ball or something at the other end? How you saw it happen before you heard it?

Its sort of similar here. Except something takes 100 years to travel to. Its not possible to go faster than the speed of light. So say you left as your star blew up, when you arrive at your destination, if you were at "lightspeed" you would see your star blowing up, but if it was 100 light years away, in reality the location of the star, or its remains, would be 100 years in the future.

The issue encountered in the novel is that the device for getting them from A-B is known to defy some laws of physics, it ALWAYS takes a fraction of a second for the ship to go from A-B, no matter the distance, but as it cannot go faster than light everything ages around them. On their last mission the squad goes so far that I think it took them 750 years to get there and back, but to them it was only a year (as they had to speed up and slow down without becoming pancakes)


I Dont buy the argument you cant go faster than the speed of light... I dont believe going faster = time travel bollocks either.


Quite simply nothing goes faster than light, but its not that simple so keep lets it as simple as possible and use rocket motors at a lower speed insead. Rockets use fuel, which is burned and goes out the back. Part of the energy supplied by goes into propelling the ejected fuel backwards and part into heating the exaust gasses and part into pushing the rocket forwards. Eventually the shp will run out of fuel, and you are accellerating the fuel on board as well as the ship, which isnt a good idea. So lets give it infinite fuel from a cornucopia. You would think that the rocket would accellerate forever, and it does, except the fact that the exhaust gasses have a limited speed, the closer the ship gets to this speed the less benefit it gets from burning fuel. Eventually the accelleration is so little as to be inconsequential and, if you were to keep burning fuel nearly forever, the ships speed would stabilise at a tiny fraction below the limit. The end result is that it can never exceed the maximum speed of the gasses going out of its exhaust.

OK, so switch the fuel for light, and the cormucopia is pushing it out the back directly, so you are getting the full benefit of lightspeed accelleration (whatever that is, lets just assume it works for the moment). You accellerate towards light but the result is you can never actually pass that speed. Its similar to a car running out of oomph at its top speed while you are driving across an infinite flat plain.

As Light is the fastest thing going we know of in a vaccum that is the speed limit. There are however certain ways of getting light to go faster or slower than itself in special mediums and under certain conditions. Light in atmosphere, water or through strong gravity travels slower than in an average space vaccum.

As to the person travelling at the speed of light, speed affects local conditions, especially time.

When we speak of time what we refer to is the speed of change, how fast something alters. A chemical changing state, the water or sand from one container pouring down into another, the tick of a clock or our bodily processes such as hartbeat, the speed of light are part of this. They only happen on a local basis and relative to the conditions of where they are. Trying to say that two distinctly different systems have to experience the same time isnt an option, even if they are only inches apart.


A person who is travelling faster experiences less time passing than a person travelling at a slower speed. Even at relatively low velocities this is measurable, the time clocks on Satnav satelites have to be corrected daily or you would end up driving to the wrong place. The person driving to London and back would also experience some time dilation, but its so small as to be inconsequential. So the person who drives to London and back has experienced more time than the one that has spent the time space travelling at light speed.

This folds back on your maximum speed too, as the ship gets closer to the speed of light it slows local time, so the cornucopia produces substantially less light than it did at a lower speed, which again reduces accelleration.

The effects of this are well documented, as are the expected effects of travelling close to the speed of light. As you approach it things outside speed up in relation to you. For a stationary person outside your ship you would slow down, but thats relativity. The next effect is that light from suns would gradually congregate together at the front and back of the ship into single points. Finally, if you do reach lightspeed, time stops for you, so you experience nothing. This is not a good idea as you cant control your ships direction or velocity, until you hit something you are totally helpless, although if you do hit something the chances are you are going to die instantly. Automatic systems on board your ship are governed by the ships internal time too, so they dont work. You might outlive everyone in the universe by doing this but I doubt it will make any difference as you wont experience anything.

BTW this isnt time travel but time dilation, slowing time down is a known fact. I will leave time travel to Steve F or someone else.

  • Offline Quixoticish

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Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #13 on: December 31, 2008, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: Serious
Quote from: Chris H
Subspace is the cop out that Star Trek uses to get away with things like this. It obeys a very different set of physics to normal space allowing you to travel through it and send messages through it at much faster velocities than possible in normal space. Its been years since I indulged in any Trek technobabble, however if memory serves the "warp" engines create a subspace bubble around the ship, moving it from real space to subspace.


Except ships can still see each other and fire at each other when in warp. Really its a twisted mess. There is also the alternative that it doesnt create a subspace bubble but moves an area of space through the rest of it. The space moves faster than light, not the ship which is inside the space.

Star wars hasnt done any better either. Neither have most of the others. David Webers Honor Harrington series of books took reality as far as it could, ships travel through a subspace but once out they are limited by the speed of light. Really though there are very few fully convincing Sci-Fi series in this area.


I couldnt care less to be honest. I know Sci-Fi shows overlook a lot of basic scientific principles but at the end of the day there is a lot more going on than space ships and laser battles if you take the time to watch and listen. If bending the rules of physics gets us to interesting and relevant storylines and shows we can enjoy then thats fine and dandy by me.

If you start to examine good science fiction too closely then youve completely and wholeheartedly missed the point.

Re:Sci fi space travel?
Reply #14 on: December 31, 2008, 12:14:38 PM
its all theory though.
your talking distance from looking at point a to point b which would be measured in light years, but if you could bend/fold space & take a tunnel/worm hole then the travel distance would become much shorter.
Take a sheet of paper for example, write A on the left side & B on the right side & say the distance in between in 100 light years. Fold that paper in half & punch through the paper from A to B - they are still 100 lightyears away
from eachother, but you would not travel for 200 light years to get there & back & time wouldnt accelerate either


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